I'm going to make this a sticky. Please feel free to add to it.

If anyone disagrees with a pronunciation, please feel free to raise an objection. In the interests of helpfulness to future readers, when we reach a conclusion, I'll edit out all the back and forth so future generations of Ballet Alertniks don't have to wade through it.

This will be a list of acceptable American pronunciations of non-English names.


Beginning with Big Lee's first questions:

Marius Petipa: Mar yus PET ee pah

Alexandra Danilova: Da NEEL ova

Tamara Toumanova: Too MAHN ova

Rudolf Nureyev: Ru dolf Noo RAY yev

Julia Makhalina: YOO-lee-ah Ma-KHA-lina (thanks, Hans)

Natalia Makarova: Nah TAL ya Ma KAR ova

Svetlana Zakharova: Svet LAHN a Za KAR ova

Alexandra, here are some ballerina names with the accent in the right place. Checked with my Russian Ballet Encyclopaedia.

Asylmura'tova Altynai
Ayu'pova Zhanna
Bessme'rtnova Natalia
Che'nchikova Olga
Chistyako'va Irina
Dudi'nskaya Natalia
Evte'yeva Elena
Fe'dorova Sofia
Go'likova Tatiana
Grache'va Nadezhda
Ivano'va Veronika
Karsa'vina Tamara
Kolpako'va Irina
Kondra'tieva Marina
Likho'vskaya Olga
Lopa'tkina Uliana
Maxi'mova Ekaterina
Me'zentseva Galina
Mikha'lchenko Alla
Osipe'nko Alla
Plise'tskaya Maya
Semenya'ka Ludmila
Semizo'rova Nina
Semyo'nova Marina
Sizo'va Alla
Soro'kina Nina
Spessi'vtzeva Olga
Struchko'va Raisa
Te'rekhova Tatiana
Timofey'eva Nina
Trefi'lova Vera
Ula'nova Galina
Veche'slova Tatiana

THANK YOU, Jorgen. That's a big help.

In reading over Jorgen's list, I had a few questions. There are several names that seem to "break the rules," such as:

Fe'dorova Sofia
Go'likova Tatiana
Ivano'va Veronika
Me'zentseva Galina

Can any Russian speakers, or others familiar with these names confirm or clarify?

I've always heard Ivanova pronounced EeVAN o va
and Mezentseva pronounced Me ZEN tse va

I just received an email from someone who confirms Jorgen's accents for Mezentseva and Ivanova. I'm going to leave up both my question and this answer in case there are others who've heard the same mispronunciations as I have.

Could we add Evdokimova? I'm not sure which syllable to accent.

I've always heard/said: Ev doe KEE moe vah

But after learning that Mezentseva is pronounced stressing the first syllable, I'll wait for some confirmation on that!

Alexandra's is the only pronunciation I have ever heard for Evdokimova. It may be worth noting, that her name is Russian, she is American by birth and nationality.

Ivanova is the most confusing name of all as different families pronounce it with the stress on different syllables, so the only way to be certain is to ask

Nureyev is one of the most difficult names to pronounce, even for Russians, as it's not a Russian name. In France his name is spelt as Noureev so perhaps pronouncing it as Noo-ree-yev comes closest.

Regarding Eva Evdokimova, her name is Bulgarian. Her father was an emigre from Bulgaria, her mother American. They met as students in Munich. Eva was born 1948 in Geneva, Switzerland, but she got an American passport. She spent most of her childhood and youth in Germany and England. She made her debut in the States only in 1977 when she was 29 years.

Regarding Jorgen's post about pronouncing Tatiana Terekhova's name — I have a video of La Bayadère with Terekhova as Gamzatti in which the Russian announcer pronounces her name with the stress on the second syllable, which is the way I've always pronounced it. She also rolls the "r."

I think that mashinka has hit on the property that we've been missing here. All of the names we've mentioned here are of ethnicities and how they are pronounced outside of their own ethnic areas. I guess the only sure way to find out how names are properly said is to ask the person him/herself. Unfortunately, that puts Petipa somewhere out of reach. I have a feeling that many would say, "Say it how you like, just, good or bad, make sure it's spelled correctly in the review!"

Since this thread is currently in the Russian realm, let me add a commonly mispronounced name to it:

Va GA nova (not "Vaga NO' va" as many say it)

How do you pronounce Kostchei (Kastchei) the evil magician in Firebird? Is there a prefered spelling? I'm labeling costumes as I speak (well type)!

Thanks for Vaganova, Marga -- that's a good one!

Cindy, I've always heard/said KOTCH ki (last syllable to rhyme with pie) but I won't go to the mat on that one As for spelling, I think this is another transliteration issue: there can be many interpretations of Cyrillic. The way you've spelled it is the way I've usually seen it, though. Happy sewing!

Here is the first request for a non-Russian name: Michele Wiles---is it Willies (as in Giselle); or Whiles (as in, she whiles away her time), or perhaps Will-less.

"Whiles"

From a post sometime in July:



Interestingly, when I listened to the same Russian announcer, I heard the stress on the first syllable.

Thanks.

Something the lists showing the accented syllables might not be correctly showing is the pronunciation of syllables with "e" in them. In Russian, there's a letter “ë”, which is pronounced “yo”, and if it occurs in a syllable, that syllable is always stressed. When it’s transliterated into English, it’s usually interpreted as “e.” Vishneva, for example, should be Vish-NYO-va. (I noticed the more correct transliteration in a French forum, and then checked with the Russian program seller when the Kirov was here.) The final vowel sound in Yuri Soloviev’s last name should be “yo”, which is how I’ve sometimes seen it transliterated in recent years.

Russian is not completely phonetic — some vowel sounds change depending on whether they’re stressed or unstressed (e.g., an unstressed “o” is pronounced like an unstressed “a” — somewhere between “ah” and “uh”). If a consonant is the last letter in a word, it’s pronounced unvoiced, even if it’s a voiced consonant. For example, all those “-ev” endings should really be pronounced “-ef” (the alternate spelling “Prokofieff” is sometimes seen). There are more rules, but if all these rules were followed in the transliterations, the names might look quite different than the transliterations were used to seeing. It would be handy if everyone were taught the international phonetic alphabet.

Wow! Thank you, djb. That's very helpful. It's impossible to write about phonetics -- and yet you've done it! It's so clear.

I suspect that the name "Fe'dorova" is actually "Fyo'dorova" (see my lengthy post above). I'm not 100% sure, though -- I'd only know for sure if I saw it written in Russian. Any Russians (or more knowledgeable non-Russians) out there who could verify this?

Why, thank you, Alexandra! When I re-read that post, I realized that the "ieff" ending proposed as a correct pronunciation is still lacking, because the "e" when unstressed is like an "i". So "yif" would be better. So "prah-KO-fyif" would probably be even better. (Now I hope a Russian doesn't inform me that the last vowel is actually a “ë” . . . and it should be pronounced “prah-kah-FYOF” . . . I guess sticking to just putting the stress on the correct syllable is probably good enough!)

You're probably safe. Since Russians already know how to pronounce everything, they don't seem to be checking this thread! :grinning:

Yes, it written Fëdorova (Fyo'dorova).

Спасибо, Jorgen!

Three ABT names I have wondered about:

Gomes: Is it Gomez or does it rhyme with "homes"?

Steiffel: (not even sure how to spell it) Is it Steyefel or Steefel?

Xiomara: I have heard it pronounce Shiomahra? Is that correct?

Gomes: Neither. GO-mesh; it's Portuguese.

Stiefel: STEE-fel, according to the recent PBS Special, I believe.

Xiomara: Well, I've been fudging it as a kind of Dzho/Cho -MAR-a , but I'm learning that calling her X-Rey's communicates adequately.

My Internet search indicated that Xiomara is pronounced "sio-MA-ra."

A grande reverence to djb for the most profound knowledge of Russian phonetics - having got a BA in Russian language and literature, I do have lots of respect for people who actually had that phonetcs subject figured out (trust me, it is NOT an easy subject even for native Russian speakers :green: ), and even better - are capable of explaining it to others "short and sweet".

As a native Russian speaker I vouch for djb - no Russian phonetics professor could've put it any more clear for you! You actually had that "YO" character figured out!!

BRAVISSIMO DJB !

i was told casually that marcelo gomes was mar-SELL-o GO-mess, tho' the person cuing me was really trying to steer me clear of saying: mar-CHELL-o GO-mezz which was the tendency around the time the young dancer arrived in nyc from brazil.
but as i say i am NO linguist and i suppose those who know their portugese can speak w/ far better authority than a PR person at a.b.t.

It is Kah-she'ey - I guess, it is better later than never, eh?

It IS a difficult word to figure - this transliteration from Russian is quite confusing. I'd tranlsiterate that evil character as Kashay (or Kashey), as it would be reading closer to the original Russian word

Yo, Marianna! Thank you so much. Maybe I should think about a new career. (Actually, I’m already working toward getting into a new career — teaching English to speakers of other languages.)

mar-SELL-oh is correct, but Gomes is GO-mesh, not too heavy on the "eh" sound as it is almost "ih"

I was looking at the Ballet Arizona website, and in their FAQ was the following Q&A:

'How do you pronounce artistic director Ib Andersen's first name?

'His first name is pronounced eb with a long "e" sound as in beet, and tree. Ib was born and raised in Denmark.'

I am sure you will make a great teacher, djb - your students will love you for your detailed style.

BTW, did you take some Russian back then, OR do you have any Russian background? - As your Russian is suspiciously good

Thank you again, Marianna! I did study Russian off and on for 4 years, from 1988-1991, and went to Russia 3 times during that period. On the last trip, I took Russian classes (nothing but Russian spoken) at the Patrice Lmumba Institute in Moscow for a month (my comprehension improved 200%!). But I was never a very serious student, and I didn't keep it up, so what remains is mostly an understanding of grammar.

One frustrating thing about Russian is that I can't figure out whether there are any rules to help figure out which syllable to accent in names. Unless I actually know the root word of the name, I have no idea which syllable to stress. For instance, I was very surprised when I heard the pronunciation TER'ekhova. Stressing the first syllable was the last way I'd have thought to pronounce it.

I learned something new recently. I'd always thought that the "aya" endings never have the stress anywhere in the "aya," because it's the feminine form of the masculine ending "i," which isn't stressed. But recently I started reading "War and Peace" (in English), and this edition has a very thorough guide to the names of the main characters, including the patronymics and various diminutive forms. It also shows which syllable is stressed in all the names. One of the family names is "DrubetSKOI." The masculine ending "oi" is stressed, so of course, the feminine form would be "DrubetSKA'ya." It pays to read!

(I know there are many people out there who are probably bored stiff by this sort of stuff, but I love it!)

djb, there are several people on this board who are learning Russian (not me), and I'm sure they're fascinated. If you ever figure out the secret to TER eh ko va please clue us in!

I will give my input on correct pronunciation of the Spanish names-
Angel Corella is pronounced an hel ko re ya
Jose Manuel Carreno is ho se man uel karre njo ( I am not sure of the last syllable as the n has the little line on top of it and it has a singular spanish sound which cannot be accurately translated into english but the sound is reproduced somewhat with the combination of the letters enje.)
Tamara Rojo is ta ma ra roho, the j is pronounced as h in spanish.
Marianela Nunez is mar y an ela nu njes, again the singular pronunciation of the n with the little line on top.
Herman Cornejo is err man cor ne ho
Joaquin de Luz is hoe a kuin de luus
Jose Martinez is hoe se mar ti nes
Lucia Lacarra is lu sia la carra
Xiomara Reyes is si o mara re yes
Carlos Acosta is car los a costa
Arantxa Ochoa is ar an cha ocho a
:cool2:

I know it's EEB, but I think it's more fun to think of him as iB ......
sometimes we have to go to great lengths to retain a sense of humor

Privet djb

we seem to share passion for ballet AND languages I can envision some 3 + hour conversations - IF we were in the circumstances to have a "live" talk :grinning:

I guess i should try really hard not to go on for ever now

The issue with the stressed syllable that you've recently discovered reading Tolstoy - it is about something that Russia has lost back in 1917: aristocracy. Those noble families last names were DISTINGUISHED from the lower class people's last names by exactly this trick - by putting a last syllable under stress (IF the endings were -OY (-OI) for men and -AYA for women) . The "lowly" people had their last names stressed ANYWHERE BUT their last syllables.

Here is another perfect example (which will round up my speech this time): Ivanov is believed to be the most common Russian last name. Everyone I know knows at least one person with a last name Ivanov or Ivanova (for females), the letter "O" comes always unders stress. I hope you're sensing the link i'm trying to make here to the Swan Lake's choreographers - Petipa and IVANOV. To show appreciation for that gentleman's outstanding work for the Russian ballet, HIS last name was pronounced then and NOW (by knowing people - like me )as IvAnov - to make his last name sound distinguished, and I guess - noble (vs. thousands of other perfectly ordinary IvanOvs).

There is nothing written in stone in any language, so you just learn as you go (for example - i was really surprised that the letters "i" and "e" in the words "recipe" and "recite" do not read the same (well, it is a French word for you, "recipe" - isn't that obvious - one of the native English speakers remarked to me :shrug:

PS Alexandra - see, see - i am ALWAYS trying to have ballet issues involved, even when yak-yaking about Russian language - you gotta love me for this

PPS I just dawned on me - half if not more of the "War and Peace" is written in French anyway. Do you feel that your French is improving, too, djb ?

Marianna - Thanks for the info. I knew about the different stresses in Ivanov, but I didn't realize it carried over into other names. Do you suppose the aristrocracy's penchant for putting the stress on the last syllable could have something to do with the accented final syllables in French? (That is, that's how the French would pronounce the name?)

My edition of War and Peace has taken the liberty of translating much of the French into English, and just making a notation that so-and-so is speaking French. Only an occasional sentence is in French. It would be nice if more of the book were in French, for purposes of practice.

My theory for that specific way of stressing the last syllables in certain Russian NOBLE lastnames (ending with -OY/-AYA) was that those folks really were trying to maintain that their family is coming from BAAAAAAAAAAAAACK THEN when the last names were stressed in that funny odd manner (and we are talking - back in X century and earlier). So most likely the point made was that "I'm coming from a really ancient roots and just want to make sure everyone makes a note of that and gets profoundly impressed" - that was supposed to evoke great respect. (NB: actually i do think it is great when people can follow up their genealogical "tree" back that far, i am not the lucky one :shrug: )

Russian last names - they way they sound now - are different from the way they were back between V and XIV-XV c.c. (they were more like nick names, like FAT, TALL, BLACK, DIRTY, PRETTY, WHITE, etc. (what do you think "TOLSTOY" means in Russian, if you only just move the syllable? Exactly "FAT MAN"!), there was a change in the XVIII-XIX c.c. (when last names were given by the children's father first name "FATHER'S FIRST NAME/OCCUPATION+ -OY/-AYA; -EV/-EVA, etc. IVAN-OV ("John's son" - literally), PONOMAR-EV (there is an add by Mark Haegeman about mime PONOMAREV, btw ) = "CHURCHBELL-RINGER'S SON" - the word "SON" has been dropped out at some point, though), which gradually brought Russian lastnames to sound the way they do now - a mix of everything.

Hope that quick excursion to the history of Russian last names could/would help some at some aspects.

PS I found it hilarious that there were remarks in the "War and Peace" English edition that so-and-so is speaking French (it is a bit like those movies with sub-titles before the sound was brought to the cinematograph ). I WISH, though, WE had those endless dialogues in French from "War and Peace" translated to Russian!!! THat would've saved me hours of reading at school!

PPS Am very much looking forward to start taking French classes in January!!! Beautiful language - and comes very useful in Canada, too! :grinning: Besides, that is the international ballet language - the language of my gods, godesses and idols

Too bad they didn't have ballet dancers way back when Russians were creating last names from their father's occupation -- we could have had someone with the last name "Balerinov" (and Balerinova)!

Maybe you can answer this, Marianna. What is a "baryshnik"? I have a vague idea that I saw a word in Russian that looked like that, that means "horse dealer" or something similar.

Apropos of last names only, "Ballerino" in Italian is still a last name. I found a site, doing research for another project, that lists Italian surnames and places them geographically; you can click on a name and see where all the people with that name live. (There are still Taglionis and Grisis and Blasis around Milan!) And there are quite a few Sr. Ballerinos. I'd love to do a family history.

So maybe there are some Balerinovs in Russia!

Alexandra, do you you have that link handy?

DJB - you are simply brilliant!! Second grande reverence comes to you YOU'VE GOT THAT RAZOR SHARP LINGUIST'S SET OF MIND!


And most likely Alexandra IS right and there are some Balerinovs and Balerinovas living in Russia!! But there are definitely no Balerinovs in my family tree :shrug:

Another good example of moving a stress in a lastname to make it sound DISTINGUISHED - "divina ballerina" of Mariinsky young Diana VishnYOva's last name is/would be USUALLY pronounced with a stress falling on that "YO" vowel ("e" with two dots above it) - however, I keep hearing now and then - when the last name is mentioned in the ballet circles - the stress has moved to the very first syllable making the common last name sound distinguished - as VEE-shneva. Those distinguished noble people !!

I'll try to answer your question about "BARYSHNIK" (yes- yes, definitely, one is sitting on a family tree of that famous Mikhail ). "BARYSH" is actually a word of TURKIC origin which was "borrowed" by Russian language from Turkish during the extensive cultural/trade/war exchange between Russians and Turks back then (i would think, back in XVII-XVIII cc.). I do not know what this word means in Turkish but in Russian it means "PROFIT/INTEREST FROM A DEAL" (and I wouldn't even try to guess what it could mean in Turkish as - this is really amusing! - the Turkish word BARDAK means only a GLASS (a glass of water), but it is A BAD MESS in Russian; Turkic DURAK is only A STOP (like a BUS STOP) - but it means FOOL in Russian; there is a nice Turkish male name BARAN - it actually means MALE SHEEP in Russian and is often associated with really dumb people. Cool, eh? (my four summer vacations spent in Turkey scuba-diving didn't go wasted)

So, "HORSE DEALER" may be applicable in case when we're talking about someone making a profit - BARYSHNIK, that fits the description, no?

I will burst like a big bubble if I won't tell you this now (and shoot me if you have already known this!) - NUR-eyev comes from another Turkic word meaning - NUR<=>DIAMOND or LIGHT (and something divine on the top of it all). Isn't that something?

Au revoir for now (and I was planning this one to be a really 'short and sweet' one :sleeping:

PS A propos, I could also tell you later where meanings of the last names of Ulanova, Vasilyev, Lopatkina come from - if you really care to know

Thanks, Marianna -- I'm definitely interested in hearing all. I'll have to hurry and get up to 30 posts, or whatever it is.

Love the Nureyev story -- I've read that there are hordes of Nureyevs in Ufa, but I still like the derivation. I'm sure people would be interested in others!

djb, I do have the link handy

Here's a master page about Italian names: (I have no Italian blood, just curious about 19th century ballet history!)

http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/pearlsofwisdo...italynames.html

For a direct link to finding where people live, try this one:

http://elenco.libero.it/elencotel/public/R...rcaOmonimie.jsp

It is, I think, a phone directory (!!!) Put in a name and you'll get a map with little circles on it (indicating all the people named Blasi, say, if that's what you're searching for). Click on each region and you'll get the names, addresses and phone numbers, by province, city, suburb, whatever, of all the present day Blasis!

If you're interested in the derivation of names, try this. (It's in Italian, but I was surprised how much I could read of it, and you can always copy something into one of the translation sites)

http://www.melegnano.net/cognomi/cognomi00.htm

That site must have taken so much work!!!!

Grazie!