In the discussion of Pacific Northwest Ballet's recent performances of Swan Lake, Helene makes the following observation about one of the Odette/Odiles, Carla Korbes:I've seen my share of Odiles for whom a long series of fouettes was not their strongest suit. A number have switched to pique turns or other choreography before ending the traditional 32, though in my opinion this conveys exhaustion rather than triumph. I've seen several dancers simply slow down, barely keeping up with the music. Others have kept cranking out their turns, as many in the audience counted along dutifully.

My question is, how important to you and to the ballet are the 32 fouettes in this role?

Are they, even if well-performed, a highlight, or merely a hurdle? Do they enhance Odile's campaign to seduce and conquer the Prince, or are they just something to dazzle? And, if fouettes are not something a dancer does not do particularly well, what SHOULD she do -- muddle through? change the choreography? decline the role?

They are not that important to me. If the dancer has to really hobble through them, they should substitute another step. Odile has to show a dazzling confidence to bewitch Siegfried and to get through the series with
obviously gritted teeth goes contrary to that.

A different story is a dancer who can do the turns but something goes wrong in the actual performance. In that case , I think the dancer should try to salvage the turns (maybe cut out multiple pirouettes) if they can.
Or if necessary, switch to another step. The key here is to try not to have it look too obvious.


I think we are more or less stuck with the 32 fouettes though, they are a tradtion and audiences love the
high-wire aspect of them. But I think it's a shame to have them subtract from a performer that does
all the rest of O/O well.

Wouldn't it be fair to say that Odile seduces Siegfried by dazzling him? I've never bought the line about Rothbart fooling Siegfried into thinking that Odile is really Odette. I think of Siegfried meeting a damsel distress in the forest, say, Olivia de Havilland, only to be confronted by a fabulously glamorous and seductive woman at the ball, say, Rita Hayworth, at which point lust takes over and he conveniently forgets about his vow. It's why I don't believe in Soviet-style happy endings. Like John Cranko once said, Siegfried is a tragic hero and must be vanquished. (Not that I approve of the Cranko and Bruhn approach of having Siegfried commit suicide by himself, leaving poor Odette alone forever and adding ungallantry to his inconstancy.)

I don't see any particular reason why Odile can't be performed by a different dancer if the ballerina performing Odette finds Odile's turns too difficult to deal with. I love the fouettés. They're a perfect physical expression of Odile's triumph.

I think they are important. They are part of the tradition of the piece - standard choreography - a signature movement if you will (such as entrachats for blue bird, balances in Rose Adagio). I don't want to exaggerate but removing obstacles for every dancer would dilute choreography until everyone was doing only those things they were good at (this happened somewhat in Soviet ballet). Truthfully I don't see why any dancer with the technical ability to do Odette/Odile can't just learn to churn out 32 fouettes! It it not a super human trick, It can be taught.

For audiences it is like hearing a soprano hit a particular note. Maybe the note can be written lower and serve the purpose, but it's part of the excitement

And Korbes did churn them out. That didn't add to the ballet or to the character. I've seen dozens of performances of Swan Lake and dozens of other ballets where fouettes have been featured, and I don't think I've seen more than a handful of dancers who could do fouettes at their most brilliant: a level sweep of the leg to second, lift of the knee into passe, repeated n times. (I feel the same way about turns in second done by men.)

The fouettes are in Swan Lake because one dancer at that level could do them. It was a custom detail for a specific dancer. Swan Lake, in my opinion, is far deeper than a one-trick pony, but if tricks are needed, there are plenty of other ones I find equally dazzling and triumphant. There are also less dazzling tricks, like Plisetskaya's pique turns, but those turns defined her turf and influence and were a dramatic means of expressing Odile's power, and I found them very satisfying.

The easy, perfectly centered quad pirouette with which Patricia Barker ended her final series of fouettes in her final performance of Swan Lake tonight were more thrilling than the fouettes themselves, at least to me.

OK, how about this. Maybe this is turning into a new thread but I don't think it will have much in the way of legs.

Who has experience with different dancers as Odette/Odile?

How did it work for you?


I've seen a paired group of dancers just once, way back in the early days of my ballet going. It must have been in the early 70s, it was a matinee at ABT. Toni Lander cancelled and Eleanor D'Antuono did Odette and Lupe Serrano did Odile (I might just have these reversed these)

I really didn't like it

When Natalia Makarova mounted her production of Swan Lake for London Festival Ballet, some ballerinas did both roles while other casts were split. It allowed some beautiful lyrical dancers to perform the ballet even though they didn't have the technical wherewithal to do Odile. Likewise, some powerful technicians who weren't equipped with the long limbs and necks and pliant backs Odette requires were at least able to show off the brilliant quality of their dancing.

I've also seen the role split for dramatic purposes, as in John Neumeier's Illusions like Swan Lake, in which the ballet is recast as the story of Ludwig II of Bavaria. (In producing a Swan Lake with gay overtones, Neumeier preceded Matthew Bourne by almost 20 years.) Neumeier rechoreographs most of the ballet, but he keeps Ivanov's second act and the "Black Swan" pas de deux. In fact, Neumeier preserves an older version of Ivanov's choreography, complete with Odette's mime and huntsmen standing together with swan maidens during the "White Swan" pas de trois. In this version, the King attends a private performance of Swan Lake, and, in accordance with Ludwig's swan fixation, becomes so enthralled by the story that he assumes the role of Siegfried himself. His fiancée, who has been completely unable to break through to him, sees this and is freaked out by it. However, during the next act she comes to his masquerade ball dressed as Odette, in a white tutu, and she and the King perform the "Black Swan" pas de deux.

Basically, my point was that the behaviour of Odette and Odile is so different, that I can't believe that Siegfried is duped into thinking that they're the same person. Some producers try to allay this by dressing Odile in white. I think the strongest argument in favour of some sort of enchantment is the Queen Mother, because otherwise it's difficult to believe she'd approve of her son's choice of such a crass fiancée. But fundamentally, I think the ballet is about the tension between chaste (I don't mean virginal) and carnal love, and this tension is lessened if Odette and Odile aren't two separate alternatives Siegfried must chose between.

Finally, I don't think that the fouettés are some sort of optional step that can just as easily be replaced by something else. A really spectacular set of fouettés can conquer an audience like few things can, so it's an expression of Odile's seductive power. When Siegfried stands roughly the same position and performs his own sequence of turns, it illustrates how completely he's been sucked into Odile's world. Besides, as Jack Anderson pointed out in "Idealists, Materialists and the Thirty-Two Fouettés," which I'm sure many of you have read, it's not just a step that's at issue. Replacing one step with another brings up the problem of what constitutes a given ballet.

Having said all that, I definitely prefer seeing one dancer in both roles. I am left in awe of ballerinas who can perform both parts well. Whether or not you think the role can be split at all depends on your reading of the story.

I saw the role split once, but not for any philosophical reason: in a 1996 San Francisco Ballet performance, Anthony Randazzo was injured, and Tina LeBlanc and David Palmer completed Acts III and IV in place of Randazzo and Evelyn Cisneros. Tina LeBlanc is a blazing technical dancer, and back then emphatically so, and her Odile was something else.

I do find it believable that Siegfried would believe that Odette and Odile are the same, for the same basic reason that Donna Anna allows Don Giovanni into her room as Don Ottavio, and why Maria does not expose Geraint Powell when he comes disguised as her husband Arthur in The Lyre of Orpheus: he wants it to be so, because he needs his reality to be different. He's at the brink of being forced into a decision to marry, and just in the nick of time, Odile shows up. (Maria wants a baby, which cannot have with the sterile Arthur, and Donna Anna needs for Don Ottavio to show some virility and not be a boring stiff with whom she'll be saddled for the rest of her life.) It has never occurred to me that he is attracted to a total, however dazzling, stranger, and I don't think this is indicated anywhere in the story. I don't think he is either Albrecht -- if he could marry anyone of his class and have girls on the side, he wouldn't be in his predicament -- or James, who abandons Effie for something more dazzling and poetic. (Who could be more poetic than Odile?) The intimate behavior with Odette would be completely inappropriate in a ballroom, and Siegfried would not expect that from her, and I doubt the Queen Mother would have approved of that, either. Dramatically, at the end of Act III, he's devastated that he's made the vow to the wrong person, not that he's been led astray by his hormones.

Odile has to outshine the other princesses, usually in pale, flowy dresses. (Early costuming for the character was in red and gold, not slinky/evil black to further the black/white dichotomy.) She also has to impress the Queen Mother, and I believe this is through a sense of personal power, represented through her dancing, to show that they are on the same page. The Queen isn't exactly traditional; there's no King like in Sleeping Beauty representing male authority. Maybe some fresh blood in the kingdom is appealing. It's more fun for the audience when Odile is blatantly wicked and, therefore, vulgarly nouveau riche, but I prefer a more subtle approach, which I find more dramatically satisfying.

I agree that the fouettes and turns in second for the man are a match, but I don't think they are the only alternative, and there are other matches. I've seen too many renditions that are danced with mediocre technique, although, like Siegfried, we're prepared to be dazzled by them, as long as the Odile says on pointe. I also don't think the fouettes are the equivalent of the supported balances in the Rose Adagio, because there is no equivalent feat that I can think of that a sheltered, well-brought-up young lady would do at her coming out party to music that isn't a waltz. The fouettes, for me, are a dazzling trick, and there are other pairs of tricks that are satisfying in the same way.

The 32 fouettes are integral to Odile’s character and exemplify her gross excess and arrogance. It’s like the lady at a party who laughs ridiculously loudly in order to call attention to herself or a woman who wears an excessive amount of jewelry. Distasteful perhaps, but it gets the job done. The excess is an important element of the character. And when Odile cranks it up a notch and does double and triple revolutions during the series of fouttees, it is highly effective. She’s really, really good at being bad, and she succeeds in not only seducing Prince Siegfried but the entire audience as well. Piques in a circle don’t have the same effect.

I saw one performance where Jolinda Menedez was Odette and Yoko Ichino was Odile, and it was less than satisfying. The fantasy and magic were compromised with such different dancers performing the roles - although the dancing itself was superb.

Contemporary interpreters may claim that Swan Lake is not about identity theft, but for me, that’s still the best story. The Prince gets confused, and he makes a tragic mistake. Simple. Extraordinary.

I love the 32 fouettes! I've never really seen them as an extension of Odile's character: they're just exciting! The music builds up, you see Odile enter upstage, and then off she goes. Without them, the Black Swan pdd loses its climax, unless you happen to be able to pique and chainee as fast as those Soviets. After all, sometimes you just want a thrill, however hackneyed.

However, I've not seen the fouettes done really well very often. Russian fouettes are kind of icky: too kick-y. I like doubles and triples, but it's awful to see ballerinas get over-ambitious and almost lose it mid-sequence, or make a horrible messy landing at the end. The French seem to have the most beautiful fouettes overall, with a lovely smooth whipping movement - but perhaps over-refined?

A strong argument against having to have the fouettes is the 60s film of 'Swan Lake' with Fonteyn and Nureyev. Fonteyn just seemes to lose momentum at the end, which is really unfortunate as it's the only record of her Odile (that I know of). So I agree, if it's going to ruin a performance, don't do 'em!

Best Odile fouettes ever seen: Alicia Alonso doing single, very fast fouettes on a checkerboard floor, staying within the same square.

Off Topic: I've seen a Don Quixote pdd with Ekaterina Maximova where in the coda she does a series of single - single - double - turn in attitude devant all within four counts.

Funny but the most beautiful fouettes that I've seen recently were Sylve in Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto 2. I also don't like the Russian style poke to the side type.

I love the 32 fouettés, I always wait for them, they are part from Swan Lake's tradition, I am disappointed when I don't see them done properly and I always count them. If the ballerina has not the virtuosity to make them a good option is the manège with two piqué tours and three chainée, but they have to be done with a lot of speed to maintain the amazing effect that the fouettés give to the pdd. I don't find another better option than this.

I have never seen two different ballerinas in the roles of Odette/Odile, but I think that it will brake evolution of the character and of the performance in a whole.

I think the French do very good fouettés and I like ballerinas over-refined... But the most amazing fouettés I have ever seen are those made by Tamara Rojo in Blancanieves, Cinthia Gregory in Don Quichotte, and a Spanish ballerina named Amaya Iglesias, now, I think, in the Ballet de Nancy, in Paquita (single, double, triple, incredible!!!!!!!!!! ).

For me personally, they are not important. I accept the argument that they exemplify Odile's cunning and overpowering character, but I am still taken out of the flow of the story at that moment because we are all evaluating the technical feat. Plus, there isn't too much to discuss about this aspect of a ballerina's performance. Can she or can't she? If she can't, is she still worth seeing? I have never seen a dancer equally strong as Odette and as Odile, but I am more disappointed by Odettes without poetry than Odiles without fouettes. One role where I do expect pyrotechnics is Kitri. But the swan is a more multifaceted role, with different demands.

Edited to add: I think I view the role like the all-around competition in gymnastics. Adagio, bravura, drama, musicality—are all required. I prefer not to see the event specialists, but the one who can weave the elements together into a convincing whole.

Amen, Beck Hen.
In the early 2000's I really enjoyed that annual Murphy/Herrera/Dvorovenko battle as to which would have the most rotations, usually around 50. Although for me it was only Murphy who found artistry in them. After her pregnancy Irina D seems to have switched focus to performing 32, cleanly and in place. Interesting that in reports from Paris she is the one gaining praise for the quality of her classical dancing.
When I first saw Maya Plisetskaya's Swan I was momentarily "shocked" when she omitted them, but by the end of that evening I had really seen the ballet. How could this most famous of O/O's omit the best part? Well, years later I found the reason in her autobiography. She couldn't do them well b/c she was "too lazy" to take the train trip back and forth to Mme. Vaganova's class to learn the step properly. After a few performances she owned the role and was able to replace them. And when that most illustrious of all balletomanes, Chairman Mao, arrived for his due honors in Moscow, he demanded a program change so that her could see her O/O.
So last year, when The Divine Sara Mearns chose to turn 12 times in NYCB's Lake I was no less moved by her artistry. When Gillian Murphy some day decides to rip off 32 quads, for her, and to me, that will also be artistry. But artistry, not numbers, rules.

I agree that Odile must dazzle. However, I am so tired of the multiples, the changements de bras, and every other fancy-schmancy gimmick that our Odiles can contrive. I think they are a huge distraction.Save those for Kitri, please.

In MY Swan Lake, the ladies would be forbidden from doing anything more than 31 singles, ending if she wishes/can with a hyper-multiple for the last one.

I heard Makarova interviewed once on her Odile characterization. She said she liked to emphasize the similarity between the two Swans, because, after all, how stupid do you think Siegfried had to be? The ballerina had to justify the confusion of a prince who would someday rule the realm.

Of course, history is rife with heads of state with significantly sub-genius IQs.

Carbro, you are destroying one of the last of my illusions! I guess, however, your statement is also true of HEIRS to thrones and other kinds of office. A short story about the Siegfried and his ladies from the point of view of the Queen might be very interesting.

While Great Leader Stalin did not attend Maya's performance with Chairman Mao, Vladimir Putin did accompany guest G. W. Bush to the Nutcracker. And President Bush did invite the American Ballet Company to perform Nutcracker at the White House. It is good that our leaders can take a break from the pressures of State.

Now that I come to think about it, I'm kind of hazy on this bit. Does Rothbart cast an Evil Spell on the court, the Queen Mother and/or Siegfried? Or does Odile have to do most of the spadework herself, as it were, which is what the fouettes are in aid of?

That would depend largely on the production. In ABT's McKenzie staging, there's little doubt that Rothbart runs the show, but I think that is a very anti-traditional take.

Since Odile is Rothbart's daughter, it seems logical that she'd have a few magic powers of her own.

Oh ouch!

I don't know, they've become a tradition, like it or not. It's kind of like the penchee ending to the White Swan pdd. It wasn't always like that, as footage from anything before the 1970s show. But now audiences have come to expect it, and it fits the music so well, so anything other than the penchee looks funny.

I’ve spoken to people who don’t know ballet at all, but two things they do know are “Swan Lake” and the 32 turns, and they’re disappointed on those occasions when they don’t get them.

Speaking for myself, I enjoy seeing them unless they’re really botched, although if they are left out I won’t demand my money back.

I do think the fouettés are important to Swan Lake's tradition, and hopefully there will always be ballerinas who can do them well. However, I don't mind substitutions, as long as whatever step the ballerina chooses is executed brilliantly.

As far as the type of fouettés goes, I do have to say I find the Cecchetti way boring, as the type of movement it produces is too slow. I like a smaller rond de jambe that emphasizes second (but I don't like going directly to second). And I would prefer some restraint in Swan Lake as opposed to Don Q, Kitri, &c. A double on every 8th turn looks nice, anything much beyond that strikes me as vulgar.

For me, anyway, the thing is artifactual. I generally don't like it when other things are substituted, no matter how well they're done. And if the Odile can't do them well, then she shouldn't be doing that part. HAARRRUMPH!

It's kind of like the Spessivtseva solo of Giselle. Yeah it wasn't always there, but now it's become of the Giselle tradition.
However in some versions it's still omitted. For instance in the recent video with Svetlana Zakharova the Bournmeister version was used and the last fouettes become supported pirouettes.

I think it's a bit more than that. For historical reasons I also don't like steps being altered or substituted. So many changes have crept into Swan Lake over the years that it's becoming increasingly difficult to know how much of the original choreography remains. At least we know for certain that the 32 fouettés were present in Petipa's original, so let's not hurry to toss them out.

re: why Siegfried falls for Odile. In this thread from 2002 Alexandra explains that it's his Fate, his Destiny. In the modern context, it's hard to understand it as a tragedy unless Siegfried knowlingly betrays Odette, but apparently the fact of betrayal is sufficient tragedy in the Classical interpretation.

For the record, I represent mid-level ballet-watchers and I like the 32 fouettés. And I'm with Mel; if the dancer can't do them, she ought not be cast.

Forgive the bad pun, but somehow I feel this discussion has come full circle. If there is a consensus, it is that the fouettes are both fun and irreplaceable. In that case, Vipa's advice is best. It is true I've seen videos of corps members performing spectacular fouettes (Zhong-Jing Fang!)—there is no shortage of dancers who can do them. Meanwhile, I'll continue to enjoy some of the dancers who can just barely get through them.

Why does no one remember that Odile is supposed to be the "image of Odette" ie. look like her? The "evil twin" incarnate who wears black for the same reason the 'evil cowboy' wore a black hat, and the good cowboy a white hat. So some swan-arm movements, and even a white costume would be apropos. AND... Rothbart shows up at the ball TOO EARLY for Odette to be transformed yet to human form, so that that weeping Odette in the window is not some figment of Siegfried's imagination, but the poor swan vainly trying to attract his attention in the window--which is why almost concurrently with that image, and musically in the score, Odile imitates Odette's 'swan arms' to capture Siegfried's attention. In an RB version I saw, Siegfried is actually 'transfixed/frozen' by Rothbart so he doesn't see what's happening at the window.

RE: The 32
Yes it's a tradition passed down from Legnani (sp?) days, and I do like traditions. Multiples work if they enhance the musical accent, but not to excess, not as a gymnastic exercize, and not as a gloat at the audiance to "look at me, look at me, the great dancer" instead of a mesmerizing act of centrifigal force like a whirlpool or "black hole" drawing Siegfried and the Court's attention and attraction to her. I too remembe Plisetskaya and being surprised she avoided them, and guessing why that was so, and not missing them.

When I was at Tokyo Ballet, O/O was performed by two different dancers, because each had strengths they wanted to show off and weaknesses they wanted to avoid. I didn't see too much a problem because it was better to see them do well, than not when performing a difficult step, but it did negate the "twin" aspect of the plot I mentioned above.

I've encountered this comment on the musical reference more than once, and no doubt Petipa intended Odile's port de bras to mirror Odette's in the window. But it's worth remembering that Tchaikovsky wrote this adagio for the first act, when neither Odette nor Odile were on the scene yet. I may seem musically obvious to us, but Tchaikovsky didn't conceive it that way.

Could Tchaikovsky have meant it as musical foreshadowing of characters that were to come later?

I don't think tragedy requires *intentional* betrayal.
I find the aspect of senseless "fate" more tragic.
After all, I think most people would concur that Romeo and Juliet is one of the all time greats of tragedy--and its ALL horrible dumb luck!
If the message had reached Romeo...
If Romeo hadn't met the apothecary...
If Juliet had woken up just a few minutes earlier...

That's tragedy (and damn frustrating if you ask me!)

There is probably no universally correct answer to the question of whether the 32 are necessary. It is certainly important that they are remembered, and when one is new to that specific ballet it is good to see a complete performance, including them, just to know.
But when one has seen it and knows the gist of it, isn't the raison d'etre for Swan Lake that it is one of those special works of art that can bring the beholder to a level that transcends mere excitement or beauty, an enobling experience that touches the sublime?

Earlier in this thread I mentioned the (second) Sara Mearns Swan Lake, with her 12 fouettés. Up to that time she hadn't even had a demi role at NYCB. In a Gia Kourlas interview in Time Out (still available on their site) after her two performances, she spoke of her dress rehearsal and first performance:


After over a hundred Swan Lakes I know the gist of it. Frankly, if that voice that tells you to turn off your cell phone had blurted out at the beginning of the variation "The ballerina needs to rest, and will come back out after the 32 music," I still wouldn't have traded her O/O for any other one at NYCB (except, of course, for Bouder's), and a lot of others too. In the face of her art, I can easily live without a rote fairy tale.

In the truly great works, the duty of a ballerina is to elevate, not just jump. To move, not just move.

I reallky appreciate drb's point that
Several posters have interpreted the 32 fouettes as essential to the character and presentation of Odile. Others have stressed tradition and loyalty to the choreographic "text" that has been handed down to us.

As to the first point: If the audience withdraws its attention and begins to count the fouettes, does this in fact develop, enhance, or even support the Odile character or the situation in which Siegfried finds himself?

As to the second point: If the dancer is forced to "churn out" the fouettes, visibly undercutting the visual and emotional impression of the rest of her performance, is the text being honored or sabotaged?

Also: if no one should undertake Swan Lake without being able to do them (at least minimally), aren't we eliminating a lot of potentially wonderful and expressive Odette/Odiles for the sake of something which is essentially a trick.?

I didn't know that! I think I knew that Tchaikovsky's original adagio was too 'romantic' and I assumed that he then wrote up something new. Was the current adagio meant for the Act I pd3?

Back on topic...

This is from bart's post:

I don't think that they shouldn't be allowed to do it, but they should really, really try to get the fouettes in, because they may be a trick but they are in the choreography and they are SUPER famous: original or not, it's what the audience expects. E.g. Margot Fonteyn apparently practised the Rose Adagio balances like crazy to make them work - dedication in order to give the audience what they want.

Which is not to say that the fouettes are the most important thing in Swan Lake, of course! (Artistry, etc... )

Btw: I have only read about and never seen NYCB. I'm not picking on Sara Mearns' unsuccessful fouettes but use her only as an example: is it fairly unusual nowadays to be weak at fouettes? They seem to be such a standard Thing - does the SAB not place very much emphasis on training to dance the 'classics'? Or have I got a rather outdated/inaccurate idea? (I will do some searching but wanted to throw that in before I forget)

Interesting questions! I was wondering the same thing. Does anyone have an answer?

No, training for the classics is not emphasized at SAB.

Victoria Leigh made a good point quite some time ago when she explained the situation of company dancers, though. When a dancer is a student, she has pointe class every day, so she is given lots of practice as far as things like fouettés, balancing, &c go. However, in a company, dancers don't have formal pointe class--the most they get is if they decide to do all or part of the company class with pointe shoes on. So it is more difficult to keep up the technique required to do such steps, especially if the ballets requiring them are not frequently performed (and therefore not often rehearsed). There is a documentary of the Kirov where it appears that the ladies do have pointe class there; they are shown practicing fouettés and various other turns, so it would be interesting to know how different companies handle this. Is the lack of pointe class an American thing, or is it typical for pro dancers everywhere not to have daily pointe class?

Can't resisit posting this review of Gillian Murphy's fouettes (ABT in London, review by Judith Mackrell, The Guardian):

I don't think Ms. Mearns is incapable of 32 fouttes. It may well have been a matter of stamina or fatigue, after all up to O/O her biggest role had been the Chinese dance in Nutcracker! Also, the strong point of the Martins Lake is Act 4, and perhaps it was her fouette choice that enabled her to deliver the goods in that act. If so, an extremely worthy trade-off! If it suits her artistically, which matters more than abstract opinions, I suspect she'll perform them next time around. Obviously Mr. B. wasn't a great fan of the 32; on the other hand, Ms. Mearns is very atypical of NYCB dancers, which also may explain why she is so often fascinating when dancing Balanchine.

From a preview of ABT's Swan Lake in Miami:
A bird, a prince, a love affair

Well I don't think that the fouettes are such a big deal. If the ballerina can do them, great! But if she's unsure then I think it would be better if she did pique turns around the stage (fast though).

The thing about this bravura steps is that they have to make an impression of Odile's triumph over the Prince. It should be the climaz of the pas de deux. If the turns look weak it takes away a bit from the rest of the pas de deux, even if the ballerina danced it really good! So I think she should choose the step in wich she can dazzle the most.

This is pretty much my thinking. The momentum of the pdd is lost if the ballerina wobbles or grinds her way through the fouettes. And I don't think it's a valid conclusion to say that if the dancer can't do them she shouldn't do the role. I think they are a trick step and have been since they were first done.

Done well they are very effective, done not so well a negative.

Sure, I hate bad fouettes, but isn't it a case of practice makes perfect? (No, really, I'm asking, not being sarcastic: can some people simply not do them?)

Well I should say it's both. Of course there's certain different techniques how to do fouettes, but it's a lot easier if you have a natural sense of turning (if that makes sense).
Of course you can practice until you're able to do 32, but those dancers who can throw in like tripples in between, they are I would think natural turners!

I was considering the problem of dancers not being able to do 32 fouettés on the Metro today, and I think it could be solved by substituting a different step (easier turns or jumps or whatever suits the dancer and music) for the first sixteen counts of the fouetté music. Then (as the music gets more dramatic at that point) the dancer could start doing fouettés, so the excitement builds along with the music instead of abruptly stopping as the ballerina decides halfway through her fouettés that she can't get through all of them after all and changes to whatever she can think of in half a second.

The music is already pretty intense while Siegfried is dancing and Odile is waiting upstage to take her turn.

Hans got me thinking about which "different steps" you could insert at the beginning of the musical passage. Pique pirouettes, with their expansive, sweeping travelling, strike me as having a very different dramatic impact from fouettes, which are controlled and have a limited range of movement across the floor. Could you start with piques and end up with fouettes? It might be rather difficult to transition quickly and smoothly from one to the other without losing a few counts.

So what steps could be substituted? What alternatives were you thinking of, Hans?

Well, almost any type of turning step either done on a diagonal or traveling forward would work as long as it works rhythmically with the music. It would just have to be engineered so that the ballerina either does a pas de bourrée en tournant or lands in fourth position in time to start the fouettés. One could even alternate pas de bourré en tournant with fouetté and then change to only fouettés after a while, or do pirouettes from 5th finishing with a developpé to the front or side as in Coppélia and Satanella. In that case the dancer would stop four counts early to have time to pas de bourré suivi and plié in fourth in preparation for continuous fouettés.

Those are pretty conventional, but I'm sure others could come up with something more interesting!

Just do the fouettes. Yes, your leg gets tired but it's something you have to practice. On the other hand I guess everyone could just pick out a favorite step and do it and that might be OK and even fun. At the same time I think it is good for dancers to measure themselves against the test of time. If dancers in the past could do technical feats (fouettes, rose Adagio balances) why not now, given the idea that ballet technique has advanced. I'm sure Sarah Means could go into a studio and work her way up to 32 if she wanted to. Not a priority and maybe it shouldn't be, but I fall into the camp that this step is a requirement of the role. Just like a note in opera that may have been written for a particular singer.

Well Plisetskaya actually did pique turns in manege but at a great speed though, it's also very affective I think!

In practice, most Odiles that I've seen do go for the 32 fouettes, but there is the issue of embellishment. Irina Dvorovenko was an embellisher before giving birth, but on her return did it straight, 32, in place. But in her second performance this season she did interpolate a triple in the middle and another for her finish. Diana Vishneva's choice is obviously based on the dramatic interpretation she's planned for any given performance.

Gillian Murphy, surely one of the most spectacular 32'ers, she reached 32 at the age of 11, has given embellishment and the place of spontaneity serious consideration, and has reached different conclusions for different ballets. Regarding Odile, in an interview given to Finis Jhung last year she says


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