In today's paper the syndicated columnist Miss Manners is asked a question about standing ovations.

I've experienced this kind of inner conflict before, too. I know that we've had variations on this topic before, but ... What kind of answer would you give the reader? Any interesting expeiences along this line?

It would be great to hear from dancers and former dancers as well as fans and the occasional captive guest.

For the record, here's Miss Manners' answer:


Another question: if you agree with Miss Manners (as I do), do you have the guts actually to do it (as I don't)?

Miss Manners said it perfectly, I think. But after a performance of La Boheme last night that was good but not great I had a nagging feeling we might have hurt the performers' feelings. Driving away I realized it was because despite the cheers and applause, no one had stood. So now that, as you said, Standing O's have become de rigeur, to begin to use them thoughtfully and sparingly might feel uncomfortable for awhile.

In his NY Times London Theater Journal Ben Brantley writes that the absence of the standing ovation is one pleasure of London theater-going:

It seems to me that SOs have become more than de rigueur of late, more like knee jerk reactions to any performance of any standard.

I am often forced into standing for an ovation, however, in order to be able to see.

I do and I do.

I have not had a problem remaining seated if I disagreed with the over-enthusiasts, however, I have had "zerbinetta's" experience of being forced to stand in order to even see a curtain call. One way of showing that I am not standing in appreciation, is to fuss with my program, coat, bag etc.etc. while doing so, thereby demonstrating I am only standing in preparation for leaving or to allow others to pass and/or leave. Of course, I have also risen in my seat with no problems or qualms to applaud those whom I deemed deserving, but am usually not the first to do so; instead, following those less ambivalent.

I agree, too, but don't have any problem sitting if I don't think something deserves it, except occasionally when it was so political I would have lost employment (literally) if I hadn't. There's no point in getting self-destructive about something that is not that vital to one's existence, or even self-respect.



Thank you, kfw, for bringing this to our attention. I find it quite as insufferable as much of Brantley's writing. It's not only written in a silly and offensive way, purely for snob appeal, it also indicates he may have read Adorno badly, but knew it might be recognizable, you know, the 'tickets to Toscanini' part. Maybe getting free tickets helps the mature critic to understand better how to get more 'use value' out of art. 'Tribal-consumerist urge' indeed, 'promiscuous s.o.-giver' indeed, a cheap double-entendre if ever I heard one. I'd never pay attention to another word he wrote.

Incidentally, I don't agree with 'seems to be de rigueur at concerts'. I don't see it nearly all the time. I also disagree that it's just 'to garner audience reaction, not to receive thanks.' That's purely cynical and jaded, as far as I can see. Actually, I think I agree with nothing of Manners' philosophy, except sitting at major performances if one hates the performance. If it's a smallish concert or performance, one ought to stand to give encouragement to the budding performer if others are doing it, because of politeness--so it's a matter of what level of development it is. If it's a good student performance, say, but that isn't quite yet masterful, it would be extremely rude to stay seated with everyone else standing, just because the violinist or singer was not Heifetz or Callas yet.

I could care less about the audience. I have come to see the artists perform and I have no restraint on MY reaction at the conclusion. I clap and call out bravos and bravas and even whistle! Yea that's me at the Met. My wife is a bit "embarrassed"... but she cuts me slack because she knows how much I have enjoyed the performance.

I do sometimes spring to my feet and clap the first moment possible when so moved. I have also sat and clapped in appreciation without the enthusiasm I show for some performers (and performances).

One day I will toss some flowers... a custom which I think is quite beautiful. Or present them somehow at the stage door or whatever. There is an entire flower protocol at the Met... and special florists which are used for the bouquets.

I have had to stand to see the performers take the curtain calls when I was not so moved to do a S/O... bit wanted to see the performers out of role. No big deal.

I do resent when people feel that exiting is rude before all curtain calls are over. For some people they simply can't stay and need to catch a train or something. If these blockers give you attitude, step on their toes as you edge by... just joking.

I suspect that performers love emotive audiences (at the end) but somewhat less so when they are interrupted mid performance at the end of an aria or dance because it might cut the flow of the piece.

I also enjoy some of the individual mannerisms of some ballerinas as they do a mid performance response to audience applause. Vishneva and Dvorovenka seem to have that bit down very well. Do they teach ballerinas these little moves?

I have rarely seen the entire audience do a S/O, but when you get most of them on their feet, you know you have just witnessed something special... like Ferri's farewell performances this past year.

My one experience at the stage door revealed that these incredible artists are very humble and appreciative of the audience and approachable. Try it sometime and meet one of your favs! You'll never forget that performance.

Coming from a tradition of a baseball stadium-style feeling in terms of popularity, massive attendance and noisy latin ways of showing devotion for ballet performances in Havana, i usually applaud to exhaustation and whistle and scream "Bravo's" and even go all the way up to the orchestra pit to make sure that i'm heard all the way up on the stage by my favorite ballerina or/and male dancer..BUT JUST IF THE PERFORMANCE DESERVED IT...if not, i still stand up and quietly applaud, but just enough for one courtain call...That's the least that should be done , I THINK , in terms of politeness, (in case we believe in the concept), and still the performers get the whole idea . THIS IS MY PARTICULAR POINT OF VIEW, AND IT CAN , OF COURSE, BE VIEWED IN A DIFFERENT WAY FROM A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE BASED ON DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES.

papeetepatrick, thanks for the discussion-enlivening, forthright pan. I like Brantley's "promiscuous." If you give a standing ovation to everyone, what do you give to the truly outstanding performer who really wins your heart? I also like his "tribal-consumerist." That sounds like human nature to me, and I don't think one has to be a snob to recognize it. Yes Brantley is privileged, but that doesn't invalidate his criticism or turn his irritation into snobbery.

While we're thinking of possible explanations, how about this hypothesis?

People get most of their visual entertainment on 2-dimensional screens (tv, movie, computer). The performers have long since gone on to something else (even death).

This makes live performance rarer and more exciting. When you jump up from your seat and act out your enthusiasm, you're becoming a performer just like those on stage. The rigid gap between audience and performer -- most strikingly expressed by those lines of worshippers sitting in silence in the dark at Bayreuth -- breaks down, for a few minutes at least.

Our traditional strictly-a-spectator audience culture is breaking down and becoming more like the participatory audience culture described by cubanmiamiboy. As previous threads have shown, this is gradually happening in Europe as well.

Yes, they do.

It would be great to hear some examples of this! (Kind of a warning label to protect consumers ... ?)

With all due respect, I told you what I do, which is I do it or I don't. Also, I thought cubanmiamiboy's contribution was excellent, because it pointed out the difference in 'Cuban tribal-consumerists' as opposed to 'London tribal consumerists', the latter with whom Brantley wishes to identify. Just because Londoners are reserved about standing ovations doesn't mean they're not 'tribal consumerists' too.



Well, it sounds like a pretentious formulation to me, one that deals him quite back into human nature rather than out of it, if that's where he was hoping his preening would take him. Not that I think any of this is really serious, it's nothing if not commonplace--but vaguely amusing.



Certainly you do not, and I have nothing against snobbery. Snobbery is probably like everything else,
we have different tastes in our snobbisms. You and I are clearly both snobs, so it's hardly a problem.



I suppose you could call it that.

Brantley wrote: (“Was it worth a hundred bucks? Sure, I gave it a standing ovation.”)

The Adorno passage I was talking about was how the person buying the expensive ticket to Toscanini enjoyed the 'spent money' more than the music in its 'pure form'. This would mean that everyone suffers from such 'human nature' except for the paid critic who, in Marxist terms, suffered no contamination from the 'exchange value'--since such would then certainly apply to those who bought the Kyra Nichols Farewell Tickets off eBay for $500 or paid $700 for Barbra Streisand tickets; they had better be adjudged as incapable of making an objective decision; and this delusion ought to surely grow in direct proportion to the amount paid.

What about: 'Was it worth a hundred bucks? NO!!' Happens all the time, and unless the research is done, one may assume that it happens possibly as often as his smug little formulations. (In any case, the London version would have to be 'Was it worth a hundred bucks? I don't know, but it is still a fact that I paid that much.")



Neither his privilege nor the lack of it 'invalidates his criticism'. I find that he does that in any number of ways, but I am not too concerned with what his irritation might be turned into--it might stay in a pure state for all I know.

I lived in NYC for many years, but nine years ago moved to Texas (not my choice). When I was first in Texas everyone gave standing ovations at the end of every performance. Coming from New York I thought this was incredibly provincial and did not like it. Much to my shock when I am in NYC now, I see the same thing happening. I think it is terrible. Sure the performers like to get a standing ovation and now have probably come to expect it, but I still think it should be reserved for the exceptional performance. When I am at a Broadway show I get the feeling that the audience (largely tourist) feels that they have to experience the "ultimate" so they give a standing ovation so that they feel as if they have experienced the "ultimate". I am undecided how I feel about this. Perhaps the audience is truly thrilled because they have not experienced anything like live Broadway before so it is an honest responese. In any case, I always come back to the performing arts should be grateful for any show of appreciation these days since government sponsorship and, frequently, community support is inadequate. But as an old diehard New Yorker I am embarassed when this happens in NYC because this is surely one place where people are educated in the arts and know good from exceptional.

papeetepatrick, my apologies, I didn't mean you specifically. I substituted "you" for the more awkward "one." Anyhow, while some Londoners are probably constrained by cultural norms from giving standing ovations, I can still understand Brantley's pleasure in escaping the particular knee jerk, culturally prescribed reaction he usually finds.


I prefer to use "snob" as a pejorative, to distinguish it from simple aesthetic judgment.


I don't fault the diagnostician for finding a problem he doesn't personally suffer from.


Brantley didn't say that everyone's judgment is compromised by exorbitant prices.


Perhaps. But in regards to ballet, while standing ovations have become standard in the U.S., few longtime balletomanes think performance quality has increased on average.

Yes, I realized I hadn't any right to say that anyone but myself was a 'snob', although I was using it in a more lighthearted way than it may have come off! After all, we both have superb taste, and--in addition--I have what is often considered some very vulgar taste as well...

Appreciate the good humour, though, and attentive response.

Interesting how audience behaviour varies in different parts of the world. The "automatic standing ovation" is not at all in evidence here (South Africa). In fact, if you can get a standing ovation in Cape Town, you can probably write to the Guinness Book of Records and let them know.
But the Cape Town audiences are the stuffiest I know (apologies to all Capetonians and please remember I was one myself for a while...)

In fact, recently while I was enthousiastically "standing up" at a performance (together with about 1/3 of the remaining audience) I was asked by an irate lady behind me (neither old nor disabled) to sit down so that she could see the curtain calls. She seemed unaware that her request was anything but perfectly just and reasonable.



I have observed this. In fact I attended a performance by a touring company (the Russian National Ballet) that had some members of the company reduced to tears on stage during the bows (I am not exaggerating) because of the indifferent audience response.

Don't keep us in suspense, Ostrich. Did you enlighten the lady?

I attend at least one music, opera, or dance performance per week in NY, and honestly, full-house standing ovations seem pretty rare here. (Broadway may be different.) Sometimes a contingent of friends, family and associated well-wishers will stand and applaud, but rarely the whole audience. I’ve experienced a handful of occasions when the whole house stood and applauded with enthusiasm – usually these have been farewell performances or something genuinely knock-you-down awe-inspiring. (Then there are those inadvertent SOs where we’re all putting on our coats and packing up to go and the artists just keep coming out and coming out and coming out for the three people who are still clapping...)

What NY audiences will do when moved is clap for a very, very long time. Earlier this year, I attended a concert at which the pianist Pierre-Laurent Aimard played a piece newly composed for him by Eliot Carter. Carter, who is 98, was in the audience (it was his birthday, too). When Aimard finished playing the piece (which was really wonderful, by the way) he literally jumped off the stage and raced over to Carter’s seat to say thank you and pay his respects. We clapped wildly for what seemed like an hour (as much for Carter as for Aimard, of course). Then Aimard played the piece again (!) and we clapped wildly some more. Aimard did get a standing ovation when he played Messiaen’s Vignt Regards sur l’Enfant-Jésus – which is very long and very hard -- at Zankel Hall a few years back. He played it beautifully, but I think the SO was as much in recognition of his having gotten through it in one piece as for his playing.

I think Bart may be on to something with his hypothesis that live performances are rarer and more exciting for audiences saturated with less immediate forms of entertainment. A few years ago I was talking with some musicians in a chamber orchestra who had recently returned from a tour through some small rural towns that rarely had the opportunity to hear much live music. They told me that the audiences clapped enthusiastically for everything whenever and wherever they could – including between movements. The musicians (who didn’t mind the between-movements clapping one bit) decided it was a reflection not of the audience’s lack of discrimination, but rather, of their great pleasure at hearing beautiful music played live, right there, just for them.

Anyway, I leap to my feet when moved to do so and stay seated when I’m not. And irrespective of how much I’ve paid for my ticket, I leave at intermission if it stinks. Life is just too short to squander on bad art – no need to compound having wasted one’s money by wasting one’s time.

Is it appropriate to applaud before a variation is completed or before a bow is given? This seems to occur quite often by members of the audience. If I am not mistaken, Balanchine did not want the audience to applaud until a final bow was indicated by the artist. Just because there is a pause in a performer's movement on stage does not always mean the piece is completed. He also did not believe in performers taking more than one bow or curtain calls.

I personally see nothing wrong in showing one's excitement at the completion of a great performance by granting the performer a standing ovation. All is in the eye of the beholder. Those who care to sit and applaud can remain seated and applaud accordingly. An audience member should not feel obligated to stand and applaud if they view the performance differently from the person seated next to them. Many audience members I have witnessed who have not cared to give a standing ovation usually leave the auditorium after giving a sufficient seated applaud.

Many patrons who support small regional ballet companies provide standing ovations after every performance as a way to show appreciation for the company's members. Believe me it does have a positive effect on the performer. During Carolina Ballet's recent performance in Wilmington, NC the company not only received a standing ovation but received a second curtain call as well after the performance. In Fort Worth, Texas, during Texas Ballet Theater 's performances standing ovations are very common at every performance. I have witnessed many wonderful performances by NYCB that did not receive standing ovations but felt the company was deserving of one. Standing ovations usually are contagious. One person stands up then another. One should not feel obligated to stand and applaud.

Providing a standing ovation for a performance is a very high compliment to the performer. It is the audience member’s way to pay tribute to the performer on a very personal level. I think as Americans we get a little too caught up in what is expected behavior. These are just my thoughts on the subject.

Hey, at a hundred bucks a ticket, that's what I have to tell myself.


So called, guilty pleasures? I bet you can't out-vulgar the Ramones.

That's the problem. I don't feel guilty about them, but figured out that I was supposed to...

More the Iggy Pop type of vulgar. He's one of my role models.

Ha! I'll see your Iggy Pop and raise you Rammstein!

Last summer in Paris we saw a standing ovation at the Garnier after a performance of Lady of the Camelias (Agnes Le Testu and Jiri Bubenicek). The ovation went on well after the house lights went up and was really something. Mind you, we had just seen the most unforgettable performance - I had cried most of the way through the final half hour, all the way through the curtain calls and all the way back to the hotel! I have since heard that it is very unusual to see a standing ovation in Paris at the Garnier.

With the two companies I follow we usually stand when someone is retiring - eg when Jeremy Kerridge retired from NBT after 21 years and more recently when Robert Parker retired from BRB.

I've also stood for exceptional performances, usually though when I know other people are going to or have already done so.

What I've often found in the UK outside London is that audiences are frequently more enthusiastic than the capital crowd, but we have less opportunity to see dance so perhaps that is why.

I politely informed her that she could stand up if she enjoyed the performance enough to want to see the curtain calls.



Clapping before a variation/dance is finished can denote one of 2 things: that the audience is so excited that they can't wait to applaud, or that they are so bored that they think "surely this must be over now, it's gone on for long enough". I don't think it is rude either way. To be on the safe side, I do hesitate long enough before clapping myself, just to be sure I don't interrupt (or show myself up as ignorant). Then again, I think the attitude to this will vary according to the cultural context. At Pavaroti's catastrophic "Farewell to Africa" performance, held in an open sport stadium in Cape Town(it began to rain halfway through) the audience started to clap and sing along. Apparently he was very annoyed and asked them to stop. How were the poor sports fans to know that?

Can we make a different/new topic for these so called "guilty pleasures"?

It is really fun (I think!) to hear about peoples interests besides the ballet. I'd start the topic myself, but I think it would be neat if we could move these starting posts over there as well...(does a mod need to do this?)

I'm sure my vulgar interests trump everyone elses

I've opened a new thread, Guilty Pleasures, in the Aesthetic Issues forum.

I must admit that I have no problem at all sitting and clapping if I feel the perfomance was merely good and not "Bravo" and ovation worthy. Why would I want to stand for a perfomance that I didn't feel worthy regardless if others did? I liken this to tipping someone extra for special courtesies versus an average tip for an average service.

But, I do have friends who go with the flow no matter the mediocre performance. I just think it is a disservice to the ones most deserving.

Maybe it has been mostly on Broadway that I have experienced the "de rigeur" standing ovation, but I don't go to Broadway that often and I am sure it has occured at ABT when it wasn't really warranted (IMO). I would expect that it does not happen unnecessarily at the opera.

In regards to clapping during a variation - I say YES, if you are so inclined and it seems appropriate. It's true that sometimes uneducated audiences will clap for every mundane lift that occurs and that is terribly annoying. (I find this true when the audience is robust with people who have experienced the "dance competition" scene, and yet, as I say, at least they are here watching a classical performance and enjoying it.) But when you are performing, it is a big let down when you do a bravura step that should ellicit applause and none is forthcoming. I think that it is in the American culture to clap when one is excited.

From Julie Kavanagh's biography of Nureyev. Nureyev is reminiscing about the audience ovation (5,800 spectators) after his -- and Paolo Bortoluzzi's -- first performance of Bejart's Songs of the Wayfarer.
This was 1971. The culture of audience narcissism ("we are the real story here") was already on its way.

At least the artists were spared the arm-waving during the performance that one sees at pop concerts. Upraised arms, waving from side to side in a wierd kind of 5th en haut -- has that particular phenomenon reached ballet performances yet?