This article appears in today’s edition of The Globe and Mail. Jennifer Fournier and Stephanie Hutchison talk about combining motherhood and dance. I’m always pleased to read about dancing moms who are still able to continue their careers – it’s a nice change from the old days, when it was much harder -- but I confess to being struck by Fournier’s comments about great ballerinas without children having only “cats and memories.” I'm sure Fournier didn't mean anything by it – hey, at least she didn’t say “barren women” -- but is it just me or is that remark a trifle insensitive? “I may not be the world’s most interesting dancer, but at least I have a husband,” Fournier did not add......


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/lifeMain/home

Wow, a reprise of "The Turning Point," except that Anne Bancroft's Emma had little dogs.

I had hoped we'd made some progress in thirty years, but I guess not??

Depends on if we're talking about situations or attitudes, I suppose.

Of course it's not you. That was a tacky thing to say, but sort of wet-blanket and cowlike, rather than sharp--not amusing like Marlene Dietrich when she really gets vicious in her last years talking about Joan Crawford.

Depressing, innit?

I was perhaps more disturbed by the following quote



Granted those of us who don't have children can't exactly argue with that--after all, since I don't have them, how can I know? I know I know, when I have kids I'll know just what she means.

What I do know is that I have intensely strong relationships with, and an immense amount of love for my parents, my husband, and yes, my cats (ok, I can't really say we have a strong relationship, I feed them, they love me. But I love them enough to have spent about 4k on my boy this summer, and I'm a grad student--read that as cashpoor).

Maybe I should suggest she care for a beloved father through a long, physically debilitating disease--taking care of all of his bodily needs and watching him slowly die. Then she can talk to me about compassion and a "deeper and richer" understanding of love.

Maybe she DID need to become a mother to understand love, and have compassion for her fellow humans, but many of us don't.

I'm sure she was just being defensive about people criticizing her choice, but when being interviewed for print, she might take care to sound a bit more, well, compassionate, towards other human beings.

I agree with aurora about the tone of defensiveness in the quotations.

My biggest problem is the suggestion that the following is a universal experience: Generalizing (and judging) from one's own particular experience is one of those things we have too much of in the world nowadays. Why not a simple "made me capable of doing more"?

I'ms ure defensiveness does play a role here. It's easier to have children and still carry on with your career than it was, but that doesn't mean that difficulties and hostility, overt or otherwise, don't exist.



Thank you. The adjective ‘tacky’ sprung to my mind, too, but I was trying to be nice.



A good point. I think in the latter category we may actually be regressing in this department.



It seems to be difficult, sometimes, for the moms to express these perfectly sincere and admirable sentiments while avoiding the kinds of implications that you mention, aurora. One sees what they mean -- but. It’s not necessarily intentional, though. (As bart notes, a simple rephrasing can take away the implied sting. Kyra Nichols talked about the effect having children made upon her in Ballet Review not too long ago and she struck exactly the right notes, I thought.)

Of course, there are occasions when the 'sting' is intentional, I fear.

Well, some great ballerinas are left alone with their cats, their memories and companies to run. Wasn't her own AD the prima of her company for a generation?

I don't know Fournier, but her remarks seem to betray not only a lack compassion but also a lack of awareness.

She’s also danced with the Suzanne Farrell Ballet. Guess Kain and Farrell are bad role models.

I don't know her either, but I've seen her dance with Farrell's troupe and I've watched Farrell rehearse her in Tzigane. She has a nice face, and while the comment might sting some ex-dancers, I read it as unthinking, not unkind.

Karen Kain was pregnant about 18-19 years ago (she is married to actor Ross Petty) and happily anticipating the birth of their baby. Unfortunately, she suffered a miscarriage. She never announced any other pregnancies, leaving her fans to wonder whether she could have had a child later.

Marga, I wasn’t really thinking of that kind of individual circumstance, sad as it certainly is. (Also, I think the matter of whether the absence of children is voluntary or not isn't quite to the point.)

At this juncture I should probably note that we should avoid speculation about individual circumstances. Not aimed at you, Marga - just a general reminder.

Why do people assume not having children is a choice? If you have the opportunity--physically, personally, circumstancially, and then choose yes or no to have children, then it's a choice, but otherwise?

So semantically (is that a word?)...
1)Is it a situation or an attitude Fournier is commenting on? If the latter, then she is insensitive to circumstance.
2) Bart is right, changing the generalized "us" to personal "me" does ameliorate it somewhat.
3) Ditto Aurora's experience. Apropos: a colleague of mine is a Superintendent of our school district, due to ovarian cancer his wife could not have children--his comment was, "I have 900 children 280 days a year to worry and care for." He said it with a smile. So, for all those AD's who don't have children, I say the same thing: You have 100+ people who respect you and look to you for guidance and care, that is a great responsibility, but it has its rewards.

I'm a working mother so I suppose it's up to me to rush to Fournier's defense... I don't mean that seriously but if you look at the article, it does look like the sentence about 'cats and memories' was edited so there may have been more context than we know. I know it seems unlikely given the huge volume of discourse about motherhood and parenting drowning the media these days, but there still is prejudice against mothers in the workplace. I doubt that a sleep-deprived new mother was thinking of anything except presenting herself and her beloved child as best she could.

More pertinently, although most mothers (whether working inside and outside the home) do regard themselves as being more efficient, better multi-taskers, packing more into a day, etc. than others, I'm not sure that those qualities are particularly important for a dancer in a big company. Sure they have to cut down on their socializing, but unlike office workers who can talk on the phone and write a document at eth same time, a dancer can't take class and rehearse simultaneously.

Agreed that the presentation is too general and somewhat abrasive, and could have been softened. But the thoughts may have nuggets of truth in them.

In my personal experience, having a baby does change your concept of love. No other relationship that I have experienced begins with such a powerful, raw, biological, primal, intense surge -- one that, as a biologist, I believe is chemically mediated (most probably by oxytocin, but possibly by swift changes in other hormones related to reproduction). This is not to say that other forms of love are not valid, intense, etc. But this one IS different from day one.

Since their babies are still young, these women may be influenced by the flush of that first surge. I can say that NEVER have I wanted another baby -- in an intense, physical way -- so much as when my children were newborns. Perhaps this type of feeling is leading them to pity women who have never experienced the rush that they have experienced. I think you might find lots of women out there whose feelings about the relative importance of children and careers changed once they had children. Before you have children, or if you don't have children, it really is impossible to imagine what it feels like.

Of course, some people do chose not to have children, and others are not able to. It's easy to conjecture, however, that dancers allow the choice to be taken away from them, and put themselves at risk of being unable to have children. I think this might be the cautionary tale in their story. Women in other professions might find it difficult or unfilfilling to return to their careers full force, but for dancers the biology of being pregnant and delivering a baby fundamentally puts their instruments, and their careers, at risk. Wouldn't you think the pressures to delay or forgo motherhood are different, and larger, than for other women? I'm struck by the fact that both these women are relatively old to be having babies -- in fact, old enough that getting pregnant and carrying a healthy baby to term are statistically dicey propositions.

[Edited by Estelle to remove a sentence added by mistake in the wrong post- sorry !]

I agree that such a wording would have been far less controversial. For example, I remember an interview of Laurent Hilaire in which he talkes about his children and how fatherhood made him feel stronger as a dancer, more confident, etc. but clearly he was speaking about his own experience only and made no generalizations about other people's lives or feelings...

4mrdncr, your colleague's words remind me of some interviews of Claude Bessy when she was the director of the POB school, from time to time, journalists asked her if she regretted not having children (what a completely idiotic and senseless question, by the way- and also somewhat sexist, as in general people seldom ask such questions to childless men) and she replied she had more than 100 children to care for every year...

Actually, I wonder to what extent the final sentence about "cats and memories" reflects more the journalists' feeling than the dancers'. And as GWTW, I'd be likely to feel indulgent about the dancers's words because they must be going through quite an exhausting period (breastfeeding and working as a dancer, that must really be hard !) and perhaps they haven't thought that their words could be considered as offensive...

At the POB, there have been many cases of dancing mothers in the last few decades, including quite a lot of principal dancers since at least the 1960s (in the last few seasons Delphine Moussin, Laetitia Pujol and Clairemarie Osta were on maternity leave- actually I think that the principals who finished their careers without having children were a minority in the last decades, the only one I remember among those who retired in the last decade is Elisabeth Platel), I guess that the rather comfortable status of POB dancers probably makes things less difficult than in some other countries- yet it must be quite a challenge physically.

(Edited to add the following):
The following sentence of the journalist is quite controversial too:

This is not Fournier's first child. Having a first baby at an "advanced" age is dicier than having a second or third or more.

For me, there was nothing wrong with the article and I liked what was presented in the Globe. From personal experience I know how much editing goes on with such articles, sometimes making the interviewees come out badly because of truncated comments. There is also an excitement in being interviewed where one may say certain things which can have a polarizing effect on some readers, and innocently omit other, equally heartlfelt, statements. It's like being on live TV or radio, where you can scarcely remember what you said, much less backpedal to fix the blurted out ideas elicited by the interviewer's questions (whose job, when well done, is to provoke a little controversy, anyway).

I have kept from entering this discussion because I used to have extremely strong views on this subject and dislike confrontation. Let me just say that before I reentered the world of ballet, I was the publisher of a magazine called "Nurturing" which I founded in 1981. It was about homebirth, breastfeeding, and 24-hour mothering. I was a non-aggressive activist as well, and had over a dozen letters published in the Toronto papers in reaction to issues such as universal day care and mothers who leave their children all day so they can work outside of the home. I was also interviewed on several TV and radio programs and was written about in a few magazines as a proponent for "my side".

I enjoyed Treefrog's thoughtful response, based on her experiences with childbirth and bonding. I related to them with full understanding on a personal level, having given birth 6 times. I was one of those women who was born to be a "natural" mother -- it's what I wanted more than anything, including ballet, and I was very comfortable as a homebirther, decades-long breastfeeder, homeschooler, family bed advocate, and gentle mother. I have also tempered my thoughts over the years as my children have grown and become adults and I have aged and, with illness, have become less passionate about my formerly-held strong stance. We grow and mature, ourselves, as we raise our children and realize there is more than one way to achieve successful parenting, as well as successful lives without parenting (or the desire to parent) at all. We may all end up with only cats and memories anyway. I have two -- cats, that is; memories I have in the millions and they are still being made.....
That's all I want to say at this time.

Turning Pointe relation, I agree: "If I had all the feet, I mean children.... "Emma"

Thanks Marga, as always, for your beautiful thoughtful comments. I was struck by the amount of weight the dancers gained---47 lbs?; 40 lbs? In my day you dared not gain more than 20 lbs. I know the medical profession has revised that but I would think someone wanting to return to a dancing career would have been more astute.

Weight gain is a tricky thing: there are women who gain 25 pounds and spend months trying to get rid of 10-15 of them. My little sister, who got every good gene in the family, weighed 110lbs from high school on until she was pregnant with my nephew, and her idea of exercise is walking from the car and back. (I'm not bitter or anything...) She weighed 150 just before giving birth. A week later, she weighed 115lbs, and she dropped the other five in what seemed like seconds. I think it depends on the body, and having had children before would have given Fournier, at least, a benchmark, for how her body would handle weight.

Some of them sure do.




That puts it in a nutshell, I think.

does anyone take umbrage anymore?

i certainly did after that 'cats and memories' remark. and i have neither!

found it rather obnoxious, or at least silly and self-absorbed. i'm not talking about her experience or that of any other mother now, just about the remark.

Note: I am most definitely not attacking motherhood, nor am I maligning its wonder as an experience, its uniqueness, etc. I just thought the remark a bit much. Wanted to get that disclaimer in there.

Not to flog the dying horse, but I did, too, I admit. As I said earlier, I'm sure Fournier did not mean to hurt or offend, but I do not see how you can interpret the phrase any other way or accuse the reporter of putting words in her mouth. The ownership of cats is the standard joke aimed at single women or women sans children, and the remark, however offhand, suggests plainly that these unfortunate ladies have nothing else in their lives, having failed - for whatever reason - to reproduce, and Fournier has been saved from this dire fate.

(I have two cats and a very tolerant dog. I feel certain they are not child surrogates. I would say more but I have to take them to soccer practice.)

Thanks to all, BTW, for providing a lively discussion on very complex issue - I've enjoyed reading all the contributions to this thread!

What day do they have ballet class? (I assume you don't discriminate, and that both cats and dog are enrolled?)

Hmmm... My cat has been looking for a soccer team to join.

But California is a long way away, so I guess he'll have to be content with kicking used toilet paper rolls alone.

there are worse things they could kick around. Believe me, my cats have found some.


what I'll never understand is why balled up tinfoil is so infinitely more entertaining to them then cat toys.

No one has commented on this part since Estelle added it, so I thought I would.

Seriously. Besides the obvious offense of the concept of a woman "unable to live without a husband," I wonder how their actual husbands feel about that.

Can one imagine reading of a male dancer that "dance is like a wife (or husband), whom they cannot live without for long"?

I don't think so.

I certainly see some of the points people have brought up (about their being unusual difficulties, even now, with being both mother and dancer), but there are a lot of concepts presented in the article which make me feel that rather than the positive spin on modern experience which I believe it means to convey (look, ballerinas can now have their cake and eat it too!), the view of womanhood it presents is a decided throwback to an era I thought we'd moved a bit further beyond.

As Helene said, it is a tricky thing, and also from what I've been told during my own pregnancy a few months ago, in general women with a low weight before the pregnancy often tend to gain more weight than women with a higher weight (the "ideal" number of pounds to gain depends on your BMI before the pregnancy- but of course it is not something very predictable, as there are so many factors...) And one can gain a lot of weight and lose it easily: when my mother was pregnant of my brother, she gained 20 kilograms (44 pounds- and my brother was born 3 weeks earlier than planned), but lost 95% of it very quickly and without any special diet...

You know, until Estelle and you mentioned it I had completely forgotten about that line from Ms. Hampson. She must have been reading Byron:

Man's love is of man's life a thing apart,
'Tis woman's whole existence.

On Monday morning shortly after reading the article you are discussing I sent the following letter to the Editors at the Globe and Mail. It appeared only in the print edition of the Tuesday edition. It read



After reading some of the comments on the board i would also like to add that my somewhat defensive remarks about how being a mother has made me a better artist and person were in response to Hampson's assertion during the interview that Georgia O'Keefe felt being a mother resulted in a loss of creativity and that a woman had in effect to choose between being an artist or a mother. That has simply not been true for me. Careful readers will also note that the words "all they have are" do not appear in quotation marks.

In the article there is no mention of how our profession has changed its attitudes toward dancers having children but to me that is implicit in any discussion of ballerinas with babies. Isn't that exactly why people are now writing articles about it? It would also have been impossible to imagine when I was a young girl that dancers could one day get a degree while still dancing as a recent NYT article discussed. Can you still achieve greatness with a term paper due the next day or a sick baby that keeps you at home?? I'm not sure about that and while I would never place myself in the category of great dancers I don't know if I could have danced as long or with the same drive if I had had a child earlier in my career . It is a very interesting topic for discussion but no one can deny that there was once a day that dancers were not encouraged to give much thought to a life after dance .

As anyone who knows me will attest my two greatest role models have been Suzanne Farrell and Karen Kain-not only do i adore them as people but could not hold them in higher regard as ballerinas and artists. That my comments in any way could be seen as a slight towards them or any ballerina without children has caused me great personal pain and an impression I would desperately like to rectify.

Thank you for your very thoughtful, beautifully expressed explanation.

I have seen enough ballerinas blossom artistically after returning from maternity leave. I have never needed to be persuaded that the experience enlarges the soul.

Welcome to BalletTalk, and congratulations on your babies!

Thank you for for the clarification, Ms. Fournier. Your response is well-put and appreciated.

As you said, the juggle between the demands of career and motherhood are still a topic for discussion; and I hope we'll continue to discuss the issue while taking into account Ms. Fournier's explanation of how she was quoted.

Thank you, Jennifer, for a very well-articulated response. Your words display an intellectual acuity which is also apparent in many of today's ballet dancers. Happy mothering to you and all new NBoC moms!

Apologies for any remarks ill-placed here due to this unfortunate occurrence, and thank you for clearing it up. I think we did know that 'all they have are' was not in quotation marks, but still find it nearly impossible to believe that journalists will take that sort of liberty, no matter how many times we've been proved wrong. I know I cannot imagine how writers with serious responsibility and with prestigious jobs see fit to do this. I think it was worth it to go through this process to find out a number of things, and journalistic sloppiness and falsification is something I'm always anxious to expose. You've rendered the coup de grace here, and this should give other interviewers pause if they look at what happened as a result of absurd liberties taken. One wonders if it's a matter of fact or nuance they think they are tampering with. I'm beginning to think they don't know the difference.

Interesting that a remark by Georgia O'Keeffe would have stimulated all this. I'm a huge fan of her, but she clearly said things that were meant to be provocative--and all of us who do this get it right a certain amount of time, and wrong the rest, with the ratios differing. Ms. O'Keeffe's use of language can be understood from Joan Didion's excellent essay on her from 'The White Album', which you may know. She describes her as 'a hard woman', that the usual words like 'crusty' and 'tough' (I believe she included that one as well, although I don't have the book at hand) were not sufficient to apply. There's also a documentary with her last companion, I think it's sometime in the 80's in New Mexico, in which she said that the people who saw in her paintings sexual imagery that might somehow reflect on her own sexuality 'are just talking about themselves.' It was not really clear that that was so, certainly not always, but that's just the way she talked. She was asked why she stayed in New York so long, when she obviously preferred the country and describes herself as a 'country person.' She just said 'Because Stieglitz was there.'

I don’t think O’Keeffe intended that particular remark to be provocative, just what was for her a statement of fact. Sometimes taking care of children, especially young children, is an impediment to work. (Yes, yes, it’s also wonderful, life enhancing, etc.) Men, however, usually have women back of them to mind the kiddies and perform domestic duties, and traditionally men are not expected to be primary caregivers for children.

Well, this post is not nearly as topical as it was when I first started trying to wrestle with technology and post it!! When I first saw the article I did what I always do when I see something that interesting, spend a few seconds with google and get some context. A quick search on SARAH HAMPSON revealed a great deal. My favourite is the globe & mail article below. Note that cats feature prominently in this article as well. "Ms. Paget, who, 51 and once married and divorced, now enjoys a live-out boyfriend and a live-in 20-pound cat called Mr. Freddie. I could hear him meowing for her attention in the background of her Los Angeles home." And one reader says "This article sounds like it was written in the 50's." There is a very good possibility that the article would have sounded like that no matter who was interviewed - the journalist seems to have her own ideas.

http://dangerouslyinept.files.wordpress.co...ex-expanded.pdf

CeC, you're a true muckraker! Great sleuthing. It's interesting that a number of the respondants accuse the author of stereotyping.

To add a little about the author of the article: Sarah Hampson is a veteran Globe and Mail columnist. She usually interviews prominent individuals ("The Hampson Interview") and is quite well known for her in-depth profiles. That she lets her own personality seep into her articles is almost inevitable given the amount of hours she normally spends with her subjects and the comfort level and familiarity she thus develops with them. Add to that the years she's been pounding the same beat and you're bound to come up with plenty of fodder for criticism. She has interviewed a vast number of celebrities and otherwise provocative people and I quite enjoy reading her stories.

I rather thought that the dance world and young children both demanded full time attention... making a conflict at some point all but inevitable...

but isn't there a lot of buzz right now about Paula Radcliffe winning the NY marathon... athletes coming back after giving birth...

creativity & exhaustion... never sure how those two intermix...

Can kids trip up her career drive? Maybe it depends on the kids, the career, and the support team the mother has available to her.