Maybe you had to live through the 60s and 70s to appreciate the point, but I had a lot of empathy with Arlene Croce when I read the following (dated 1977) from her collection Going to the Dance:

Few choreographers today seem to want to make significant points about the Meaning of Life. But there are still plenty of ballet cliches around (uses of music, uses of choreography, ways of presenting dancers or "characters", attempts to manipulate the audience).

It would be great to hear about the cliches that you yourself have observed and found grating. Who knows, we might help a few would-be choreographers to avoid them in the future.

General conventions in theater as a whole that are getting stale:

• The Meaning of Life
• The Meaning of Death
• It Sucks to be Me
• It Sucks to be You
• It's All the Fault of the Government
• It's All the Fault of Society
• See How Clever I am at Stringing Component Parts (words, steps, notes) Together?
• Meaning doesn't matter
• Feelings don't matter
• Everything is a Crock

And to Extrapolate:

It Sucks To Be Us

I love the euphemistic phrase "rich dark brown"!

OK, cliched ballet images/ideas:

The Degas ballerina with the black choker (which for me evokes the 1980s more than the nineteenth century).

Dances to recorded popular songs (did this start with Twyla?).

Carmina Burana or Rite of Spring as the expression of primal/tribal urgency

Male "fighting" or "playful manly sparring"

I'm sure I'll think of more!

Critics use this kind of purely subjective talk at the point they feel they can put it over. I always remember back to Barbra Streisand's attempt to begin her conquering of the opera 'n' Shakespeare world she always wanted to do instead of continuing with the treacly songs, i.e., she made 'Classical Barbra'. The Village Voice said something about 'shades of corporate blue', but I think this was even before IBM was termed Big Blue. It interests me because I thought I knew what 'corporate blue' meant even though it is just made up. I thought 'corporate blue' looked like certain skyscrapers in Midtown especially if they had a Marlboro Man ad up it.

It must indeed be upsetting to dislike Mahler because of the boring ballets spun out of his music. I know that's not why I hate Minkus--some of the ballets to Minkus's music make it almost bearable...but not quite.

There are times when I really don't want to hear 'incomparable', 'took incredible risks', or phrases like 'danced with piteous beauty'.

I like Capezio ad cliches, however, they're so superficial and chic. And PLAYBILLS! They're so tacky they're a total joy! You can find out about all the expensive restaurants that are unconcerned with the cuisine.

Still think Rite of Spring conveys tribal urgency well enough, but that Carmina Burana just conveys primitivism, plus anything danced to Philip Glass is automatic manipulation.

Almost all cliches were new and even revelatory when first introduced. It's the imitation and repetition in ballet after ballet that annoys.

Contemporary ballet: The main cliche is the belief in Perpetrual Motion at all costs. Non-stop, pointless meandering on speed. For example, frequent rushing on and off stage to keep the corps busy in the absence of interesting and sustained choreography. Also, hyperactive and repetitive choreography for the arms: often drawn from semaphore, hip hop, and power cheerleading.

Those little plate-shaped tutus, often worn low at the hip and a bit off the horizontal.

Massing the dancers and having them march downstage towards the audience in a menacing fashion. Is this supposed to frighten the bourgeoisie?

Putting one group of dancers in toe-shoes and the others in slippers (or Keds) ... and then treating it as though you were making a profound sociological or cultural statement. Tharp and others did this long ago ... and have moved on.

The idea that the well-trained young classical dancer needs to be liberated (i.e., loosened up) by taking down her hair and dancing funky.

Trying to imitate the sort of movement Pilobolus does, but tryiing to integrate it into conventional choreography. Also, using dancers who don't do it well.

Classical: Bored courtiers sitting or standing motionless (catatonia?) while the principals and soloists do their variations. To be fair, some of the men do occasionally walk a bit to a new location.

More than 10 penchee arabesques in a single variation.

The belief that Spanish or Neapolitan character dancers are most authentic when moving frantically and grinning manaically.

The Russian practice of interrupting ballets for frequent curtain calls ... which go on and on as long as even a handful of people in the audience continue clapping. The expression of faux surprise and modesty -- "Who? ME? You love ME? But I do not DESERVE such adoration"-- makes it even worse.

More on hair: Women undoing their hair at times of great emotional stress. It was new with Giselle or even Seranade, but ... today? Also: whipping the pony tail around as though it were another limb.

But I LOVE this one, the sillier the better...



That reminds of how much I disliked Suzanne Farrell's hair when 'In Memory Of...' premiered. Reminded me somehow of Amy Irving in 'Yentl.'

patrick! This is the first silly thing you've ever said!

Oh, I was hoping you'd catch me at this! It's just that I always found her so elegant and beautiful with her hair pulled back severely. But don't think it wasn't one of the most memorable performances I ever saw her do--because it was easily one of the greatest. I thought she never looked taller (except maybe in 'Mozartiana') on pointe, and I always remember her arms as the character is weakening. It was marvelous. You have to forgive my pettiness, you see I find her a very beautiful woman as well as dancer, and I thought she was a BLONDE until the hair came down! I hope you can forgive me, and I had never admitted this before...

All is forgiven!

Ballets to baroque music - especially those with a step for every note.

Ballets to Vivaldi's Four Seasons - when I run the world they will be banned.

And not just baroque!

One more: Spanish dances where the corps hammers on noiseless tambourines.

Well, the dancers can't exactly saunter back onstage with a bored expression when all our lives we've been told how lucky we are and how grateful we ought to be for every penny and tiny crumb or encouraging glance that happens to be tossed in our general direction.

I do have to mention though that I am rather tired of the plot convention of the Beautiful White Lady (Sylvia, Medora, Nikiya, Raymonda) menaced by a male dressed in a cliché middle eastern manner (usually complete with an entourage of people who dance with flexed feet and splayed fingers).

Full-cyc projections. I mean, when there's a movie on with 40-foot tall people, who watches the dancers?

Terrific work, BTers! You've just given today's choreographers LOTS of good ideas Just imagine all of these -- or even 10 of these -- in the same work!

My take on the Mahler ballets (through no fault of Mahler) was that they could have been called Death is Sad.

Well, I think we have all seen a bunch of pas de deux's where the man throws the woman around, hoists her over his head, drags her on the floor and twists her around in pretzel shapes to show that love is war, or the eternal battle of the sexes or that men are pigs even when they are wearing tights and have nice butts... or something...

Ah, the Pretzel Girl pas de deux, staple of our age

Hans (and earlier), I guess I should be been more careful in writing this complaint. It's not really the bows, it's the effect they have on breaking up -- and killing the pacing of -- the pas de deux. I prefer NYCB's discipline in these matters.

I haven't seen 40-foot people yet. But recently, I did seen misty, pseudo-romantic images of flowers and limpid ponds. And raindrdops: "Drip. Drip. Drip" -- no sound, but the movement was totally out of synch with anything in the music. Unfortunately, such design ideas also come with awful choreography, so one's pain is doubled. That's when I close my eyes and think of Higher Things.

Can anyone imagine video projections, however, that would actually enhance the choreography? I can't think of any offhand, but I know I've seen a few that seemed to work. Or am I thinking of still photographs?.
FauxPas, I can imagine the U.S. Tour -- a couple of young studs with attitude -- "Pigs in Tights." Interviews would with the boys would all focus on just how manly, athletic, and un-sissy dancing can be. For example: "You get to man-handle all those hot chicks. They love it. The audience loves it. WE love it."
Just don't tell Bejart!

I never saw it, but how did the Robbins (?) piece w/the backdrop film of Fred and Ginger work in this regard?

If only we still could....

Not. The cast appears against the film clip only in the finale. As good as they are, do you want to watch 5'-6' tall NYCB dancers (in a genre in which they're not really comfortable or fluent) do the same steps as a 40-foot tall, illuminated Fred and Rita? The real-life dancers pretty much disappear in the finale, at least as seen from the upper rings of the theater.

The scene is a sort of homage to the film clip. Toward the end the NYCB dancers stop trying to compete with the image of Fred and Rita and pause in tribute to the action on the screen.

There are good cliches and bad cliches. Having recently revisited the ABT "Swan Lake," I submit the May Pole dance (which I like).

Now that's an idea I really like. It's subtle on number of levels.

I've never seen this ballet. Farrellfan, how is the transition accomplished? Do they seem to be aware that they can't really compete and that they are, in a sense, surrendering?

A question: I've always assumed that "cliche" implied a negative. I personally love the term "good cliche," which FarrellFan has used. But, are there other terms as well for stock or familiar images which somehow transcend the predictability of facility of the "bad" cliche?

How about that short men cannot be princes and do not partner taller women?

Just to be clear, "cliche" is usually used pejoratively. Wikipedia defines it as "a phrase, expression, or idea that has been overused to the point of losing its intended force or novelty, especially when at some time it was considered distinctively forceful or novel. The term is most likely to be used in a negative context"; and, ""Cliché" applies also to almost any situation, plot device, subject, characterization, figure of speech, or object—in short, any sign—that has become overly familiar or commonplace." I wouldn't thus class the maypole dance as cliched, but conventional or traditional. (Do beloved conventions or traditions = "good cliches"?) I suppose it creates an image, though, that might make some wince! Not me. Unless it's in Carmina Burana.

That does it--these two postings just described most of the plot and action in Raymonda. And I wonder why this ballet isn't performed that much in the West in complete form, in my humble opinion....

Remember, anything that passed through Russia may reflect the nation's traditional attitude toward the Ottoman Empire and its constituent suzerainities. They frankly didn't like one another. Once, in the early 18th century, when Peter the Great was campaigning against the Poles, he found himself entirely in the air tactically, but the Sultan in Constantinople, whom I recall as "Sulieman the Silly" rejected a plan for his army to capture Peter, saying, "If I were to capture the Tsar, who would rule Russia?"

Given the realities of today's world, I'm only a little surprised that no one has mounted a Raymonda of massive political incorrectness, with a vile, vile, Abderakhman, and a Virgin Mary-surrogate White Lady restored.

Who say's ballet's irrelevant?

Much of communication is theater and performance arts like ballet will resort to stereotyping to convey messages "shorthand". Obviously stereotpying is hardly accurate as noted above, both in plot lines and national characters.

However we somehow need them when we want to refer to "groups" and need to extract "some" common quality. We do this for cultural elements and even entire cultures the "spanish", the "arab" and so forth right down to people; the "heroine", the "soldier" and so on.

When you attend ballet you have to go with the flow or else you sit there thinking it's all silly and ridiculous. And of course we must remind ourselves that most ballet was created more than 100 years ago when stereotypes were a bit different than they are today. My own take is that modern writers of plays, cinema and so forth are less bound to using the tried and true stereotypes, though obviously Hollywood hasn't caught on because they feed us a continuous stream of stereotyping and formulaic plot lines which seem to appeal mostly to children.

We can't seem to not resort the the language of stereotypes in communication and ballet seems to be a victim of this same trap. For me the stories lines are really very unimportant as I attend to see what I call "the beauty of humans in motion". I am way too old to believe fairy tales like Swan Lake, but the beauty of the ballet is something I will never tire of experiencing.

We discuss the "acting ability" of dancers at time and we do this because conveying emotions is part of being a character on stage in a performance. This too involves stereotyped gestures to a certain extent and is required to make the plots understandable, I suppose. Without good acting the ballet would not stand up so even though the plot lines are ridiculous, we need our dancers to have this talent as well as being geniuses of movement. I suspect some ballet dancers would make excellent actors for stage or screen.

What isn't irrelevant?

Modern dancers as strong, powerful and independent thinkers and ballerinas as the complete opposite. Enough already!!!

Now that's a really good addition to our list. Important, too. Especially since this is a stereotype generally wielded against ballet people by those on the outside.

I rcertainly remember hearing this in the old days. Is this stereotype still widely encountered? If so, where does it come from, do you think?

ROFL. I just watched MacMillan's TRIAD for the umpteenth time on dvd. I like the ballet (love Prokofiev's 1st violin concerto), but your description fits! Every time I see it, I feel so bad for La Fosse in the PDD - he looks like he's about to collapse. I'd rather be the person being twisted into a pretzel. I think that would be lots of fun!!!

Beginning a dance (and/or ending one) writhing on the floor.

Yes! And isn't it obligatory at some point for the dancer to stretch his/her arm upward (possibly pleading for help) before slumping back into the writhing position? (A choreographer with time to kill will often repeat this stretching gesture throughout the piece.)

On the other hand, there's a marvellous photo in the Spring 2008 Dance Now that gives writhing a new twist. The choreographer is Maresa von Stockert. The piece is called Glacier. Here's a description written by the reviewer, Lyndsey Winship:
The photo shows a super-thin woman, body contorted, one arm raised, stuck to the floor and covered by a gooey black substance. It is, somehow, heartbreaking.

If the curtain lifts to a lone chair on stage, you know you're in for a long night...

Now, THAT' s a cliche. (What about just trying to mask the lack of skills to do strong, powerful and independent pointework...?)

Silly use of props in ballets such as La Bayadère. I remember Universal Ballet's version from about 8 years ago at the State Theater (Lincoln Center). The sets and decorations were the finest money could buy, but what I remember best is the long row of seated parrot girls before (or after?) their dance, each with an identical plastic parrot sewn to the right shoulder of their costumes. They sat there motionless, like their parrots, feet crossed at the ankles, stretched to maximum arched point, seemingly oblivious to the feathered friends perched just inches from their heads. It looked ridiculous.

But if the chair starts to tap-dance, then you've really got something!

Which was the reason why I was REALLY surprised that in the Teatro alla Scala production of Swan Lake (2004 DVD release) during Act III, during the Neopolitan dance sequence the dancers were hitting tambourines that were the real thing. Even in the 2006 Mariinsky Ballet performance of the same ballet in that same exact dance sequence, the dancers didn't use real tambourines.

Someone quick, it's been too long since I've seen it live, but didn't the NYCB dancers in Tarantella have real tambourines? I thought I remembered McBride and Villella and then McBride and ??? banging tambourines, real ones.

This has been an incredibly entertaining thread and I must thank you all for making my day.

PS, I am on board with the cliches so far mentioned, and will add that courtiers faking conversations with each other between variations tries my already short patience for 19th century story ballets. It would be fun to know what they're *really* saying, although if my cousin, a former dancer with Chicago City Ballet and Hamburg is to be trusted, I might not really want to know.

Yes, "Tarantella" has real tambourines in it, sometimes following where they are in Hershy Kay's orchestration of the original "Grande Tarantelle for Violin and Orchestra" (RO 259/Op. 67), and sometimes they are where they SHOULD be in the orchestration! Baryshnikov danced the boy's part sometimes. I also think that I can recall Bart Cook dancing it, also Gen Horiuchi.

Rackon, if the courtiers are doing their jobs correctly (and they usually aren't because they don't have the training) their conversations should be mimed, thus allowing you to know what they are saying. What usually happens is that the dancers just chatter to each other under their breaths, giving the effect that you're watching a silent film. I agree, it's annoying.

Many of those I've seen -- especially in European productions -- actually do seem to be "miming" in a wierd sort of way: "I'm bored." "I deserve a bigger part than this." "God, this pas de deux is endless."

Hans, your comment raises some interesting questions. Decisions about miming must be very difficult to make in these situations. For example, if everyone reacts to Carabosse's curse, you have an enormous amount of visual distration. On the other hand, if only a few respond, those who don't will appear to be drugged or even dead.

What sort of miming gestures are you thinking of? For instance, what should a trained courtier do in response to one of the major scenes in Sleeping Beauty, Carabosse's curse, for example, or Aurora's fascination with the knitting needles? And how should they be responding to the divertissements, long stretches of stage time which would seem to be a great challenge for those not actually dancing?

(That made my morning!)

Well, in the case of Carabosse's curse or something similar, such as Giselle's mad scene or Aurora with the needle, a lot of miming is not really necessary from the corps--just the appropriate facial expressions and a few simple gestures and body language. They're there more to help create the mood and emotion than specific mime 'words'.

During divertissements, you don't really want a lot of distraction during the dancing, but the courtiers should at least look interested, and mime gestures should be kept relatively small. The Mariinsky has its courtiers do things such as bow whenever the prince or other nobility dances by them in a variation, for example, but they can also have restrained conversations with each other.

The most important time to mime conversations is during the party scene in the Nutcracker. There isn't a lot of classical dancing going on, and everyone has to look animated as people would be at a party, not sitting there watching a performance. Then you can have more elaborate 'conversations' in the background, but either mouthing words or just plain whispering to one's partner does not come across well to the audience. Unfortunately I can't be terribly specific as I have no formal mime training, so I can't do it very well myself, but I know what it's supposed to look like. Once during a Sleeping Beauty rehearsal, Peter Martins gave an off-the-cuff demonstration of how to mime a conversation to a courtier, and it was surprising to see how much can be conveyed via mime. But you have to be trained.

I've noticed on more than one occasion, when a decoration falls off a costume or a prop is dropped, you can see the "telephone" line as corps dancers suggest that this one or that one remove it from the stage at the earliest opportunity and pass it on to the appointed dancer.

"How about tonight Chinese we go?"

"God no, last night we did."

"How about first drinks, then we decide?"

"Ooo yes! I could a martini use!"

Etc., etc.

Mel, I've gotten a start on choreographing the mime for your elegant conversation. Unfortunately, the software allows only 5 emoticons (love that word!).

The limitations on emoticomiming makes it okay for most classical part scenes, if we follow Hans's rule of thumb. But we definitely need more emoticons for the Nutcracker party guests. "Let's have a drink" is probably universal. But how do you express something as specific as a "martini"? Or "Chinese food"? Mimicking chopsticks might confuse people who have seen the knitting ladies in Sleeping Beauty.

"Chopsticks" is easy. You only use one hand, unless you're really bad at using them, or using them as skewers to eat corn on the cob, so they won't be easily conflated with "knitting". Of course, the mime of using chopsticks even well could be mistaken for "knocking the ash off a cigar", so that would require some work. "Martini" could be trickier, as the shape of the classic glass in the hand will not read well to the house, and it could only be worse if you prefer the drink on the rocks. Perhaps there is something essential to the martini which contributes to mime. I recall the late Queen Mum, who loved her martini in the afternoon, and at the first sip would give a delighted little shiver at the gin shock! Royal Ballet dancers would be so good at this!